Another shot at nerfing casters for balance

[kitcik]

Make the caster have to concentrate for the rest of the round to make sure a spell fully goes off. If someone hits the caster during the round and the caster fails the Concentration check, the spell poofs even if it was already cast.

For instance, caster casts glitterdust on monster A. Monster B doesn't like that, and smacks caster. Caster fails the check, and the glitterdust is spoiled.

The good (great!): takes initiative out of the picture, nothing hard to remember, gives a reasonable chance of disruption. Solves all of Marley's issues.

The bad: caster initiatve boosts are WAY nerfed.

The ugly: Is monster A blind when it tries to hit? In other words, what happens to the spell effect in the meantime? What if the duration is instantaneous?

I like the idea.

I think we can fix the "bad" - give a boost to Concentration after the caster's initiative (so if the caster goes first, their DC is lower since they don't have to concentrate as hard after they get it off).

The ugly is tough. For instance, what if it's a "save or die" --> I guess the only solution is, the spell has no effect until the end of the round, then it is resolved.

All in all, I like it. Maybe I will re-post with this built in.

 

[Sekhmet]

But... that's exactly what my suggestion is.

Even in 1E, most spells' casting times were measured in segments (partial rounds), the difference being that someone could attack you before your spell segment occurred - as opposed to 3E where all your actions occur on your turn.

My suggestion is to reintroduce casting times, but rather than go through every spell and try to differentiate them, just let everybody with a higher inititative have a whack at you before the spell goes off.

Your method is having spells still require only one round to complete (with caveat).
Previously, the spells that were most effective were given multiple round cast times.


You could also reduce ability score modifiers to spell slots, and reduce maximum spells/lv by -2.
IE: At 20th Wizard, your maximum spells per level would be 2, and your int modifier would count for only 2/3rd as much or less.
That alone would really hit wizards hard.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

The good (great!): takes initiative out of the picture, nothing hard to remember, gives a reasonable chance of disruption. Solves all of Marley's issues.

The bad: caster initiatve boosts are WAY nerfed.

The ugly: Is monster A blind when it tries to hit? In other words, what happens to the spell effect in the meantime? What if the duration is instantaneous?

I like the idea.

I think we can fix the "bad" - give a boost to Concentration after the caster's initiative (so if the caster goes first, their DC is lower since they don't have to concentrate as hard after they get it off).

The ugly is tough. For instance, what if it's a "save or die" --> I guess the only solution is, the spell has no effect until the end of the round, then it is resolved.

All in all, I like it. Maybe I will re-post with this built in.

A side effect I just realized is the caster might choose to go last, meaning there's nothing to disrupt the spell technically. It might still work though, since going last has disadvantages too.

As for how and when the spell takes effect, I was thinking of a way to work partial effects in but not all spells have a partial. It does seem like the best way to handle it would be for the effect to only go through at the end of the round. This would probably be sufficient to nerf casters enough that they aren't all-powerful.

Fluff-wise, it'd be easy to say that magic takes a moment to work.

The subject of dispelling might come up too, specifically what happens if Caster A does a spell on one turn, and Caster B decides to dispell it that same turn. Since both would take effect at the end of the round, it seems likely that the dispell would go off without a hitch, unless of course the dispell was negated. This would make dispelling a viable tactic too it seems, so I'd say it works pretty well.

 

[BriarMonkey]

Why are you overcomplicating things?

The only time a caster is "overpowered" is when he has the perfect spell load-out for the situation, or if you allow the oft-cited 15-minute workday. (Neither of which I have ever seen at my tables in over 30 years.)

There are already mechanics in place to allow for disrupting spell casting and making the spell slingers' life difficult. These are things like counterspelling and readying an action. Now, granted, the current use of counterspelling could use a lot of help; but, for an opponent, like an archer, to ready an action to disrupt a spell slinger, is a pretty potent tool - and one that I rarely ever see used.

So, before coming up with a lot of extra work, try something that's already there.

 

[kitcik]

Why are you overcomplicating things?

The only time a caster is "overpowered" is when he has the perfect spell load-out for the situation, or if you allow the oft-cited 15-minute workday. (Neither of which I have ever seen at my tables in over 30 years.)

There are already mechanics in place to allow for disrupting spell casting and making the spell slingers' life difficult. These are things like counterspelling and readying an action. Now, granted, the current use of counterspelling could use a lot of help; but, for an opponent, like an archer, to ready an action to disrupt a spell slinger, is a pretty potent tool - and one that I rarely ever see used.

So, before coming up with a lot of extra work, try something that's already there.

What's there doesn't work. A readied action is one shot, and only if you won initiative (or readied from a prior round) AND know where the caster is (unlikely). And you can still miss or they can make their Concentration. And you forego your full attack, thereby losing your most potent offense, so the caster has had an impact even if you hit them.

However, if you don't think casters are overpowered in 3.5 (i.e. you are part of the 1%, since 99% seem to agree on this), then there is no point in arguing. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[xigbar]

Here's a list for an arena game on a different site that I thought was a really nice set of houserules for a normal game. Prepare for a Wall of Text......

Any spell, power, etc. with an XP component does not exist.
Psionic powers or mantles do not exist at all.
Psi-like abilities that are based on psionic powers do not exist.
If you successfully steal spells from an opponent using the Spell Theft (CM) spell, those spell do not accompany you out of the arena or into your next fight.
The following spells do not exist in any way, shape or form:

Astral Projection
Blasphemy
Celerity (or any of its counterparts)
Contingency
Dictum
Disjunction
Forcecage
Gate
Holy Word
Irresistible Dance
Limited Wish
Magic Jar
Maze
Miracle
Planar Ally
Planar Binding
Polymorph Any Object
Reality Maelstrom
Rebuke (or any of its counterparts)
Shapechange
Timestop
Trap The Soul
Wish
Word of Balance
Word of Chaos
Wrathful Castigation​

Any other spell, power, manuever, ability, etc. that allows you to 'manipulate' the flow of time and/or initiative so that your opponent literally does not get a turn is automatically banned as well.
Surge of Fortune cannot be combined with the Vorpal weapon property, or any other spell / ability, that would result in an automatic kill when combined with rolling a natural 20.
A caster can only be under the effect of a single casting of Surge of Fortune at a time.
The spell Starmantle from BoED does not interact in any way with evasion, improved evasion, or other ability that somehow negates damage with a successful reflex save.
The text of the spell Ebon Eyes from Spell Compendium is hereby completely deleted and replaced with the following: "You gain the visual acuity of a devil for the duration of the spell. You can see normally in darkness and magical darkness out to 30 feet."
The Dragonfire Adept invocation Chilling Fog is usable only once every 1d4 rounds.
Nerveskitter is not allowed as a means of increasing your initiative score.
Freedom of Movement is amended as follows: Freedom of Movement
Abjuration
Level: Bard 4, Cleric 4, Druid 4, Luck 4, Ranger 4
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or creature touched
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. By using a standard action, the subject can completely end a paralysis or slow effect, or move at their normal speed through solid fog, web and similar effects. However, if the subject re-enters the area of the solid fog or other effect, they once more become subject to its effects.

By using a standard action the subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin. A single standard action allows the subject to automatically exit the grapple, whether they are pinned or not, ending up in the adjacent square of their choice. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, allow water breathing.

Material Component: A leather thong, bound around the arm or a similar appendage.
Antimagic Field is amended as follows: Antimagic Field
Abjuration
Level: Cleric 6, Magic 6, Protection 6, Sorcerer/Wizard 5
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 10 ft.
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to many magical effects. An antimagic field automatically suppresses any spell or magical effect currently active on the caster, and it prevents the caster from casting any new spells on himself so long as the antimagic field is in effect. The caster can still cast spells with a target or area of effect that lies outside the radius of the antimagic field.

Any other spell that allows spell resistance that is cast upon anyone inside the radius of the antimagic field automatically fails to affect them. However, spells or spell-like abilities that do not allow spell resistance can enter the field and affect the caster or other creatures as usual. As supernatural abilities never allow spell resistance, they are unaffected by an antimagic field.

Magic items and weapons continue to function in an antimagic field for the most part. If one of these items generates a temporary or instantaneous effect that would normally be subject to spell resistance, then just that aspect of the item or weapon does not work.

Dispel magic cannot remove an antimagic field, however it can still target the caster or creatures inside the radius of the field. (Though since the caster of an antimagic field essentially has no active spells on him, a targeted dispel would be somewhat pointless.)

Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

Should a creature other than the caster be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

Arcane Material Component: A pinch of powdered iron or iron filings.

Wings of Cover is amended as follows:
WINGS OF COVER
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sorcerer 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

Immense, partially translucent wings unfurl from behind you and almost completely shield you from the sight of your enemies for a single heartbeat.

Your evoked wings grant protection against a specific violent action. If your foe is about to attack you with a melee, ranged, spell, or supernatural attack, you can cast this spell immediately, creating a hemispherical barrier (or a spherical barrier if you are not standing on solid ground) of force shaped like dragon wings.

The wings of force last just long enough to potentially disrupt your foe's line of effect to you. You gain a miss chance equal to 30% + your caster level against that single attack, spell, etc. This miss chance cannot be negated by any means, and is not considered "concealment" for the purposes of spells like True Strike, the re-roll granted by Blind-Fight, and so on. The wings unfurl and then dissipate an instant later.

If you are the subject of an area attack, you instead receive +8 Insight bonus to your appropriate saving throw (usually Reflex) as well as Improved Evasion; though if the area effect instead calls for a Fortitude or Will saving throw, you gain no additional benefit.

Special: A dragonblooded character, or a character with the dragon type, can provide cover for one additional adjacent ally for every three caster levels.

Wings of Flurry is amended as follows: WINGS OF FLURRY
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sorcerer 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30 ft.
Area: 30-ft.-radius burst, centered on you
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half, the Will
Spell Resistance: Yes

Immense, scaled wings unfurl from behind you and beat at nearby foes in a savage flurry before vanishing as quickly as they appeared.

You evoke flickering dragon's wings that strike at every creature in range, dealing 1d6 points of damage per caster level to all within 30 feet that fail a Reflex saving throw, and half that damage to creatures that succeed on the save. Creatures that fail the Reflex save must make a Will save at the same DC. Those that fail the Will saving throw are also dazed for 1 round. Success on the Will save means the creature is merely dazzled for 1 round instead.

Special: A dragonblooded character, or a character with the dragon type, casts this spell at +1 caster level.

 

[dagger]

I would like to see a link to this 1% vs 99%.....thanks.

Also we roll stats so casters are not always getting a 18 in a primary stat.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Also we roll stats so casters are not always getting a 18 in a primary stat.

Rolled stats if anything hurts martial classes, who need many good attributes. A caster only really needs one, and it doesn't even need to be that high, since the game provides a +1 every 4 levels, but only to one stat (thus more helpful to the single ability dependent classes). A starting score of 15 is sufficient. If the player failed to roll a single score of 15 or above either a)By the rules, his total modifiers are so low he gets to reroll or b) he's just barely above that fringe point and has abominable stats that will doom him no matter what he plays.

If you want to hurt casters / help noncasters more in ability score generation, give higher point buys but raise the cost of getting a 17 or 18 starting stat.

 

[kitcik]

I would like to see a link to this 1% vs 99%.....thanks.

Also we roll stats so casters are not always getting a 18 in a primary stat.

This is a good place to start.

 

[dagger]

This is a good place to start.

Still waiting on a link that shows 99% of people who played 3.5 think casters are overpowered.

Hint: There isn't one