Another TPK - Sigh.

[ForceUser]

Tonight my players rolled new characters for the third time in ten months of regular play. Twice before they've wiped out. I feel bad about it, and as a storyteller it's frustrating because it seems that we're constantly taking steps backward instead of forward. Evaluating my DMing style, I don't feel that I'm "out to get" my players, nor do I feel like I put them up against unreasonable threats. It's just that the threats they face sometimes require finesse and smart planning, an understanding of the situations they face, and I often get the feeling that my players aren't quite totally aware of the consequences of their actions.

For example, tonight they faced a small tribe of ogres. The party was 3rd-5th level (7 characters, average level 4th) and were tackling the problem of anywhere from 5-8 ogres who were raiding nearby villages. They knew the ogre leader could cast call lightning, which made him at least a 5th-level druid or spirit shaman (with nonassociated class levels for being an ogre spirit shaman, he was CR 6). They knew the regular ogres numbered 4-7. They knew where the ogres laired, and they knew that the ogres spent their recent days plundering the nearby barrow-tombs of ancient pagan chieftains. The ogres were not aware of them, and so they knew they had all the time they needed to plot a strategy to tackle the problem.

Instead, they entered the ogre lair during the day, while most of the ogres were out, ransacked the place, and killed the single ogre sentry. They left his head on a pike as a warning (or a boast, I'm not sure) and departed. The ogres returned home that evening, saw their slaughtered kin, and promptly organized a search for the culprits.

Meanwhile, the party had retreated half a mile away from the ogres' lair, built a fire, set a watch, and went to bed. The ogre leader was a tracker. With low-light vision, a rising moon and all night to track, he found the party by spotting their campfire at a distance. He fell back, put bull's strength on himself and a few others, cast shillelagh on his greatclub, then moved within the edge of medium range and targeted the PCs' campfire with entangle. Caught completely by surprise, the group didn't have much of a chance. They all died.

Could I have let them slide and not followed the logical outcome of their actions, based on the monsters' capabilities? I suppose. Could I have gone easy on them during the fight and flubbed a few crucial die rolls? I guess I could have. I didn't, though, because I believe in fair play. I believe in adhering closely to the rules and the capabilities of my NPCs. Should I go easy on the PCs when they make bad decisions (such as leaving the campfire lit after raiding the ogre lair)? Twice now, bad decisions on the part of the players have caused TPKs. They're not all newbies; some are veteran players. I don't like changing my leveled approach to DMing to accomodate the players' poor choices. I also don't like starting over all the time.

What would you have done?

 

[FireLance]

I truly sympathize, because I'm in more or less the same situation. Most of my current group just enjoy combat without too much thinking. This has nothing to do with roleplaying experience - I've been gaming with some of them (on and off) for more than 10 years. It's just a matter of playing style.

So, what I do is to plan each encounter with the expectation that my players are just going to wade into it and bash on the opposition until someone runs out of hit points. My games play like one of those one-on-one combat video games: there's a plot if you're interested, but if not, you can ignore the story (and tactical, and strategic) elements and roll for initiative.

But I do have a grand plan to change that. I've come up with a series of stand-alone encounters featuring simple pre-generated characters. I'm going to pit them against opponents which are just out of their league and give them the chance to replay the encounter (several times, if they want) until they get the hang of tactics. That way, they can make mistakes and get killed without impacting on the ongoing campaign.

If my effort to teach them tactics works, I might move on to strategies and get them to think about how their opponents will react to what they do.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What would you have done?

I'd have cast Shillelagh on a club or quarterstaff, not a greatclub...

... but that's a fairly minor point

-Hyp.

 

[Mark]

The ambush situation raises the level of the encounter. It's not surprising they were TPK'd by that group of adversaries. You didn't really do anything wrong except forget that circumstances can overpower a party as easily as outnumbering them.

As an alternative, I suppose, you could have had the Ogres feel they needed to capture the party and bring them back to their lair for a ritual killing, thus giving the party a better chance to fend them off or possibly have some escape or survive.

Another possible alternative would have been to have the Ogre leader suspicious of how easy the situation of the openly-camping party appears to be. He could have then, perhaps, tasked one of his minions to avenge the death of their kinsman by walking into the camp and challenging the leader of the PC party to single combat.

Either of these would have been a way to allow the party to get on their feet and somewhat equipped before full-tilt combat began. The PCs aware and on their feet, afterall, would have been the way in which the encounter was originally balanced to be a proper challenge, if I understand what you are saying correctly, right?

 

[Chimera]

Sometimes players insist on doing stupid things despite any and all effort on your part to warn them.

My last campaign started with the destruction of the PC's home village by an overwhelming force. They had to make their way past Beholders and Bugbears to get away. The next morning they woke up to see a group that had foolishly started a campfire be utterly destroyed by enemy wizards riding dragons. (as a cautionary tale to set the tone)

So what did they do? Well, first they wanted to reverse course and go back to see if there were any survivors. BAD BAD IDEA. They became angry with me when I simply WOULD NOT allow them to do it. Then that night, they insisted on lighting a camp fire. I had several NPCs ready to kill them over it before they got the clue. I had to ask - several times - if we should simply stop the game, or if they wanted to draw up new characters because they were going to get their current ones killed.

I finally had to set the books aside and tell them very bluntly that their characters were in great danger and should simply RUN AWAY!!! (and that they should stop being stupid about it!)


One has to wonder if your players have ever read the Monster Manual. Ogres have Darkvision and Low Light Vision. They favor attacks with overwhelming odds and ambushes.

So what do your players do? They make the Ogres angry, then go set up a freaking beacon to draw them in...and go to bed. Just plain suicidally stupid behavior and I have no sympathy for them as players.

What would I have done? Exactly what you did. Kill the lot. Not out of any sort of anger or vindictiveness, but simply as a natural consequence of their actions.

The object lesson, which you should make sure your players know, is "I'm not going to pull punches. Please act in a reasonably non-suicidal manner."

 

[beeber]

firelance--good luck with your educational experience.

forceuser--i would have done the same. monsters aren't just cannon fodder; they are intelligent beings that respond to external stimuli, like seeing a companion's head on a stick. if this is the third TPK, then your players need to learn something. how did they take the loss? hurtful, or "oh well, we f'ed up?" hopefully the latter.

 

[shock the monkey]

DMs should blame themselves more often; after all, they are the ones running the campaign. But instead of taking a hard look at themselves, they act like smug deities looking down upon the foolishness of their players.

Sometimes you guys forget that the whole point of this GAME is to have fun.

 

[LostSoul]

Tonight my players rolled new characters for the third time in ten months of regular play. Twice before they've wiped out.

Evaluating my DMing style ... I [don't] feel like I put them up against unreasonable threats.

Unless the dice went horribly bad for the PCs, you have put them up against unreasonable threats. If that was not the case, you would not have TPKs.

 

[Numion]

The ambush situation raises the level of the encounter. It's not surprising they were TPK'd by that group of adversaries. You didn't really do anything wrong except forget that circumstances can overpower a party as easily as outnumbering them.

Are you sure he forgot that? It is, after all, the PCs actions that made the encounter as difficult as it was.

 

[Treebore]

The object of the game is to have fun, but how fun is it when players count on the genersoity of the DM to not get TPK'ed by camping a half mile away from the location that they robbed, murdered a buddy, and then left his head on a stick? Guess that is why most criminals get caught, too stupid to cover thier trails and hide out to see if they are being pursued.

I hope the ogres enjoyed their meals.