Any DM's not allowing Spiked Chains?

[Plane Sailing]

Based on its real world impact, I'd rather have the staff - say with the addition of a feat or two - use the spiked chain mechanics rather than the spiked chain.

That is a very neat idea, actually... although in untrained hands the staff is just a big club, both the east and west have staff fighting traditions that turn it into a very nasty weapon, with reach, able to use it close up and with better reach than a sword, great for tripping... I could easily see an 'exotic weapon - staff' with the spiked chain statistics (and just bludgeoning damage, of course).

Cheers

 

[Nail]

That's not a spiked chain.

.....close enough....

 

[Elethiomel]

Ban it along with several other weapons, riding dogs and most alchemical equipment

I'm curious - what's your beef with riding dogs?

So I tend to ban Spiked Chain for two reasons.
1. It's silly.
2. It does everything any other weapon can do. It has reach. It can attack up close. It is finesseable. It is two-handed. It can trip. It gets the disarm bonus. So it's basically all other weapons rolled into one.

 

[axp_dave]

Our DM didn't ban it out right, but kept asking the monk "where are you carrying it?". The monk's answer was "wrapped around my waste". This led to the monk taking damage anytime he tumbled or did anything when he wasn't holding his weapon.

I thought it was a very good point by the DM. A sword goes in its sheath while a character is moving, climbing, jumping, etc., but where does the "spiked" chain go? If a player kept an empty backpack and pulled it out when needed, it might be fair, but players want instant access to their weapon.

The means of carrying the spiked chain have in essence made the weapon unlikely to be taken as a main weapon.

David

 

[Celebrim]

The spiked-ball-on-the-end-of-the-chain isn't exactly a spiked chain, however. But yes, whenever I DM spiked chains morph into chained spiked balls. It helps he visualize it as a weapon, instead of a complicated way of suicide.

The problem is that this weapon is closer to example of a real world dire flail, than it is a spike chain. I'd have no problem with a feat that let you use that weapon to make reach attacks (but not necessarily threaten at range and close simultaneously, except again, maybe with another feat), but I have a big problem with the assumption that one feat gets you full access to the options available in such a clumsy and difficult to use weapon as a meteor.

My understanding of the meteor is that it is principally a stage weapon. It takes years and years to get good with it, and if you look at the traditional training done for or with this weapon its not combat training - its stagecraft, or atheleticism, or physical discipline. For example, filling bowls with water or flaming oil (from which it gets its name) and swinging it in such a way that you don't spill them teaches great balance and rhythm, but these are primarily performance techniques (juggling, dancing) not combat techniques. I don't see alot of evidence out there that the meteor was ever regularly used as a weapon. Instead, I see alot of evidence that the usage seen in a movie like Kill Bill - that is to say a staged performance - was about the only way the weapon was ever used.

If I really wanted to tolerate chain weapon silliness and they were long enough be considered something other than a variant light flail (which I have no problem with), it would be something like a meteor though because at least using that isn't completely suicidal. But it would have nothing like the abilities of a spiked chain (which someone currectly pointed out is basically every weapon advantage rolled into one) and alot of special rules that would make it rather unattractive. For example:

The wielder suffers a -2 penalty to initiative because of the clumsiness of the weapon.
On a roll of 1 or 2 that misses the target, the wielder must make a DC 10 Dex check or fumble (loose next standard action, trip self, or strike self).
Whenever the wielder misses the target (and there is not a fumble), if thier is an ally within 5', the wielder must make a DC 15 Dex check or make an inadvertant attack on an ally instead.
Whenever the wielder is in underbrush or dense wood, the wielder is at a -4 circumstance penalty to hit and -1 to damage because the chain snags on projecting vegetation.
Whenever the wielder does not have a clear space to swing (there are solid obstacles flanking the wielder) the wielder has a -4 circumstance penalty to hit and -1 to damage when making ranged attacks. This is cumulative with the underbrush penalty.
The weapon cannot be used at all (except as an improvised punching weapon) when the wielder is squeezing.
It takes a full round action to ready a meteor if it is not already in hand, or a move equivalent action if you have Quickdraw.
It (and all true 'soft' weapons) being poor parrying weapons cannot take advantage of the combat expertise feat.

Hopefully, by the time I got to the end of that list, any power gamer would have already decided this was not his thing.

Plain Sailing: If no one weapon gets as ridiculously overpowered as the 'spiked chain', no one weapon quite gets shafted the way that the staff does.

 

[Deset Gled]

Plain Sailing: If no one weapon gets as ridiculously overpowered as the 'spiked chain', no one weapon quite gets shafted the way that the staff does.

First, your logic here is faulty. Eliminating all weapons that are overpowered does not mean that there will be no weapons that are underpowered. The nunchaku, for example, still requires EWP and costs more than the club, which does the same damage, has the same threat range, and is a free simple weapon.

Second, I see a number of rants about why you don't like the concept of the spiked chain. I see no analysis that would lead me to believe it's overpowered in any way.

 

[Someone]

The problem is that this weapon is closer to example of a real world dire flail, than it is a spike chain. I'd have no problem with a feat that let you use that weapon to make reach attacks (but not necessarily threaten at range and close simultaneously, except again, maybe with another feat), but I have a big problem with the assumption that one feat gets you full access to the options available in such a clumsy and difficult to use weapon as a meteor.

I kinda agree with you, the spiked ball on a chain was as much used in real life as double swords, double axes, and the rest of that group. The advantage of it, however, is that I at least can conceive how the spiked ball can deal damage and I'm unable to understand how the regular spiked chain manages to do that.

That, and maybe a bit of nostalgia from the old, old, old Black Dragon arcade I played as a child (and that I sometimes still play on the emulator)

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Our DM didn't ban it out right, but kept asking the monk "where are you carrying it?". The monk's answer was "wrapped around my waste". This led to the monk taking damage anytime he tumbled or did anything when he wasn't holding his weapon.

I thought it was a very good point by the DM. A sword goes in its sheath while a character is moving, climbing, jumping, etc., but where does the "spiked" chain go? If a player kept an empty backpack and pulled it out when needed, it might be fair, but players want instant access to their weapon.

The means of carrying the spiked chain have in essence made the weapon unlikely to be taken as a main weapon.

David

im glad you asked. It is a very good point. How does one sheath that great sword, or unsheath it in battle? a large leather pack on the waist would hold a spiked chain. the spiked chain would conform to and bundle up nicely in such a case.

Hopefully, by the time I got to the end of that list, any power gamer would have already decided this was not his thing.

nor would anyone else for that matter. lets take a feat for a weapon that is infearior to most martial weapons like the Guisarme and spiked armor. A power gamer doesent use a spiked chain (even at full power), a power gamer uses a guisarme and guantlet or spiked armor and does the same thing only without a exotic weapon feat. what about exotic weapon master? well thier are 2d6 triping reach weapons that do slashing and peracering. Those work alot better then any spiked chain.

 

[Nail]

The problem is that this weapon is closer to example of a real world dire flail, than it is a spike chain...

I can appreciate a "real-world" analysis of a spiked chain. Although analysis either by historical comparisons or through fun movie special-effects is applicable to gaming.

I'm personally far more concerned with balance with respect to other weapons. The fantasy weapon could be a tiny mossy twig -- so long as it's balanced, I'm happy to come up with some quasi-psuedo-reasonable description of how the weapon works.

...ah, the tiny mossy twig........now there was a great weapon....

 

[Bacris]

Hopefully, by the time I got to the end of that list, any power gamer would have already decided this was not his thing.

This would seem to me to be over-compensating, as opposed to balancing it.

Do you do this sort of thing with all weapons in your games, or just this one?