Anyone check out Radiance RPG yet?

[AncientSpirits]

I just looked over the TOWNIES section a bit and I have to say coming from a 3.5/Pathfinder background it's hard to accept that the NPCs don't play by the same rules as the PCs. It seems very odd to have TOWNIES with abilties that PCs can't get till late in their careers.

I understand the idea behind it but it still seems odd.

It's definitely a change. Radiance RPG assumes a prospering industrializing society, where specialization is common and critically important, especially with large populations and hundreds of diverse consumer needs. Radiance is also built with flatter level progression, functioning more like 4E than 3.x/Pathfinder. In 4E, for example, PCs may easily meet a local healer who can do basic healing and also raise dead and is pretty weak otherwise with no other abilities, as that's his or her specialty.

To use a metaphor, it's like PCs go to university and these NPCs go to trade and technical schools to learn a very narrow but effective set of practical skills. Consider, after 2 years of training, likely less, an electrician can confidently do many things that a university graduate from engineering school can't do. However, in the long run, that electrician isn't going to be doing the wide array of things the engineer *may* end up doing.

Of course there are NPCs in the population that are built like PCs, but that's the purview of a whole supplemental book of NPCs, as in 3.5/Pathfinder.

So yes, most adult people are townies, they have meaningful abilities in terms of game mechanics, and a group of townies can be quite helpful or harmful. Gone are the days of 10th level PCs casually wading through a hundred 1st-level commoners with little to no interest in or fear of them.

That said, the break points seem a bit odd. Townies are 2 (but can be levelled to 4) and Alders are 6 (can be levelled to 8) but Patrons start at 13? And Royal patron is 20?

Does this mean all kings/rulers are high level? If so this is definitely different from 3,5/Pathfinder. I'm totally picturing Lord British from Ultima.

You can easily have a ruler who is an aristocrat townie (level 2) or just an alder. That said, the ruler may not last very long. In a multiverse where the personal power of magic matters a lot, it's inevitable that rulers who survive will be people who have developed skills and abilities related to leading effectively in a dangerous and magical world.

Beyond the level 2 townie, all the ideas --people with two professions, alders and patrons, etc--are just that, ideas. You can think of townie as +2 levels to whatever a person already is. Similarly, the alder package of abilities provides +4 levels to whatever a person already has, keeping in mind that the sample alder has 2 levels of townie already, which is why he's level 6. Same for patrons, as the patron package of abilities is worth +7 levels, and the sample patron is 13th level because he has 2 levels of townie + 4 levels of alder along with 7 levels of patron abilities.

And yes, Lord British is a great example of a typical royal patron!

Different Townies have different numbers of abilities, do all Townies add up to 10 points worth of abilities since they're 2nd level?

Yes, all 100 townies have 10 design points worth of abilities (or rather 9 points with a +2 bonus to one attribute).

There's a little question about advancement too. If a Townie takes a 2nd profession and then becomes an Alder does he lose his 2nd profession? Or does he simply advance to a Level 8 Alder with 2 professions.

He keeps his second profession and is level 8. Note that unlike PCs, these NPCs must do apprenticeships etc for several *years* and then jump upward to the new status. Supposedly they are only practicing their new abilities in the background in their spare time as they slowly learn.

I understand that Townies don't have to follow the same 1-20 level progression as PCs but is it assumed that they went up through the Townie stages? IE were all Alders, Patrons, and Royal Patrons once Townies?

Yes, all alders, patrons, and royal patrons were once townies, even if for a short time.

BTW, in pre-modern times, people were seen as wielding power by virtue of their office, rather than as *just* something within themselves. A king has the power of a king due to both his talents and his officially recognized role as king. To strip the king of his role is to reduce him in power, not just figuratively but literally. The source of the role's power--ancestors, God's grace, etc--varies by culture. So Radiance takes this idea and uses it to explain the power of great rulers. These special folks take time and effort to advance, like everyone, and due their destiny and the power of their office, they enjoy a greater set of powers, and more vitality, than the average person.

 

[VanceMadrox]

Ok thinking of Townie and Alder as packages does help.

It still creates a somewhat odd mix of NPCs following the same rules as PCs (5 points/level) but not following the same rules (jumping from 2nd to 6th to 13th).

There's nothing inhrernetly wrong with it, it's just new and odd and will take some getting used to.



On to other questions!


In the book you say that regardless of race a character is limit to only 20 years of gaining experience. Is there an in world reason for this? Or is this a practical application to prevent the longer lived races from being higher levelled?



Also, have you ever considered running a PbP for radiance here on ENworld?

I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd be intersted.

 

[VanceMadrox]

I also just wanted to let you know that while I have a lot of questions and some critiques I am genuinely interested in Radiance.

It has many things that I like a lot.

-Saves as defenses (one of the few things i liked about 4e)

-Far more customization than I expected at first glance.

I was worried about the lack of feats and skill points at first but the combination of Race/Class/Theme is far more robust than I expected.

-A way to knock people out without them having to be at negative HP.
Seriously,this is missing from a LOT of games.

-The Wound/Vitality split.
It always bugged me at higher levels in D&D and Pathfinder because you had humans who were extremely superhumanly tough, to the point I couldn't buy them as human anymore. Your split makes a lot of sense. One question though, why does CON add to Vitality and not wounds? It seems like a higher CON should make you actually physically more resilient (ie more WOUNDS).

-The Power Level
I'm a big fan of the E6-E8 concept in D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder. The upper levels of Radiance have powers about on par with 9-10th level in D&D and Pathfinder but spread over 20 levels. Basically it seems to extend the D&D sweet spot across the whole range of levels.

 

[AncientSpirits]

In the book you say that regardless of race a character is limit to only 20 years of gaining experience. Is there an in world reason for this? Or is this a practical application to prevent the longer lived races from being higher levelled?

Sages posit that the mortal humanoid brain is only capable of 20 years worth of learning. Though some races are longer lived, they all apparently share similar capacity.

And yes, it's also practical to explain certain fantasy world outcomes.

Also, have you ever considered running a PbP for radiance here on ENworld?

I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd be intersted.

Hmm... never done PbP before. I travel quite a bit with a really hectic schedule, which in some ways lends itself to PbP. I'm giving up face to face table top gaming for the next 3 months simply because of travels. It would be an interesting experiment. I'll consider it when I return from Japan in a few weeks.

 

[VanceMadrox]

Sages posit that the mortal humanoid brain is only capable of 20 years worth of learning. Though some races are longer lived, they all apparently share similar capacity.

And yes, it's also practical to explain certain fantasy world outcomes.

Not sure I buy this one. I honestly think the long lived Races SHOULD be more powerful overall but fewer in number. If anythign radiance supports this mechanically because a bunch of level 5-6 Humans can match a few level 15+ Elves.

Still it's a minor issue.

Hmm... never done PbP before. I travel quite a bit with a really hectic schedule, which in some ways lends itself to PbP. I'm giving up face to face table top gaming for the next 3 months simply because of travels. It would be an interesting experiment. I'll consider it when I return from Japan in a few weeks.

Please do. You could even use it to playtest an adventure. If you do decide to give it a try save me a player spot

 

[AncientSpirits]

I also just wanted to let you know that while I have a lot of questions and some critiques I am genuinely interested in Radiance.

It has many things that I like a lot.

-Saves as defenses (one of the few things i liked about 4e)

-Far more customization than I expected at first glance.

I was worried about the lack of feats and skill points at first but the combination of Race/Class/Theme is far more robust than I expected.

-A way to knock people out without them having to be at negative HP.
Seriously,this is missing from a LOT of games.

-The Wound/Vitality split.
It always bugged me at higher levels in D&D and Pathfinder because you had humans who were extremely superhumanly tough, to the point I couldn't buy them as human anymore. Your split makes a lot of sense. One question though, why does CON add to Vitality and not wounds? It seems like a higher CON should make you actually physically more resilient (ie more WOUNDS).

-The Power Level
I'm a big fan of the E6-E8 concept in D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder. The upper levels of Radiance have powers about on par with 9-10th level in D&D and Pathfinder but spread over 20 levels. Basically it seems to extend the D&D sweet spot across the whole range of levels.

The saves as defenses makes play go faster, though some players feel it takes the fun of them rolling to defend themselves. Personally, I preferred it from the start, as it also gives back some narrative control to the GM.

Skills is one area that I definitely had second (and third) thoughts about. The current system works well enough in play even though, *on paper*, it can look a little wonky. By the time I considered a different way to do skills, game development was so far along, and skills so integrated into everything, there was no going back. I do believe now that re-rolls, rather than bonuses, is probably the better way to go in allowing a more predictable play experience.

I love vitality and wounds. No more falling 200 ft onto stony ground and then getting up as if little occurred. And I decided to implement the dazed rule as standard rather than optional, when characters suffer wound damage for the first time. It makes fights that much more exciting beyond "is it bleeding yet?"

The knock out rule came up on day 1 of our first ongoing campaign a few years ago. Five 1st-level PCs trying to subdue a giant moa bird. The knock out rules allow most PCs to overcome low-level NPCs without killing them.

I've always enjoyed the lower levels of play. Except for a campaign in 1st edition some 25-30 years ago, I've always ended games before 15th level. Although the power curve is flatter, by 12th to 14th level in Radiance, the PCs are still quite powerful. The main benefit: The GM retains more control of the environment until the highest levels, with teleport, scry, etc pushed way up there. So the PCs are nasty in combat, for example, but the players still need to investigate, spy, think, etc to figure out the usual who, what, why, where, and how.

 

[AncientSpirits]

Not sure I buy this one. I honestly think the long lived Races SHOULD be more powerful overall but fewer in number. If anythign radiance supports this mechanically because a bunch of level 5-6 Humans can match a few level 15+ Elves.

Still it's a minor issue.

In practice, that still happens. Long-lived races have fewer children and invest more in their development, ensuring that the kids take full advantage of those 20 years. And the really short-lived races like goblins are unlikely to survive long enough to take advantage of that 20 year limit. An elven community will surely have more members with multiple townie professions, more alders etc per capita, and perhaps even more PC-classed characters, than a goblin community.

And I definitely agree: The flatter level progression allows more balance between races, just as you describe.

Please do. You could even use it to playtest an adventure. If you do decide to give it a try save me a player spot

Will do!

 

[VanceMadrox]

The main benefit: The GM retains more control of the environment until the highest levels, with teleport, scry, etc pushed way up there. So the PCs are nasty in combat, for example, but the players still need to investigate, spy, think, etc to figure out the usual who, what, why, where, and how.

I agree with this one entirely and that's one of the main reasons I fell in love with the E6 concept for 3.5& Pathfinder.

Radiance seem to do it WITHOUT having to limit the system at all.

Now if I ever run a game of Radiance I'll definitely limit what races/classes are available but I hate kitchen sink settings.

 

[VanceMadrox]

In practice, that still happens. Long-lived races have fewer children and invest more in their development, ensuring that the kids take full advantage of those 20 years. And the really short-lived races like goblins are unlikely to survive long enough to take advantage of that 20 year limit. An elven community will surely have more members with multiple townie professions, more alders etc per capita, and perhaps even more PC-classed characters, than a goblin community.

And I definitely agree: The flatter level progression allows more balance between races, just as you describe.

Does the 20 year experience period include a character from levelling up as a townie/alder? My guess would be no. If this is the case then the 20 year thing is a bit more palatable; after 20 years out in the world more exposure to the world really won't teach you anything new.

Still the 20 years seems arbitrary, I'd rather see it as a percentage of lifespan.

Once again though it's a minor issue. Very few campaigns will have more than 20 years of active adventuring. As long as characters can still advance as Townies/Alders that would cover the rest of the time.


The retired adventurer turned baron/High Priest, etc etc is a classic trope too.

 

[AncientSpirits]

Now if I ever run a game of Radiance I'll definitely limit what races/classes are available but I hate kitchen sink settings.

The panoply of races is meant to provide options. GMs can specify a small set of races as typical to give an old-school feel or a tech feel (warmech, slith, etc), then by all means...