D&D 5E Anyone else finding character advancement pretty dull?

[Maxperson]

More than 50% of 5e players are new to D&D, and this edition has massively expanded the marketplace so much that "what players from other editions think" is not even a major question for WOTC anymore (in fact Jeremy Crawford recently implied that with the cancellation of the Revised Ranger - the player base expanded so much with new players who think the PHB Ranger is fine in just the past couple years, they don't even feel the pressure to address it anymore). It's probably outsold the first 4 years of 3e+3.5e+4e COMBINED I think at this point. You appear to be woefully behind on your information, stuck on prior editions and thinking we're "early" with this edition. We're not. It's well into this edition and having the best sales year ever in the history of D&D right this year.

Think about that: This year of 5e is literally a better sales year than the first year of 3e, or 3.5e, or 4e, when the PHB had just come out. Heck I think more people are WATCHING D&D played online by others than even played 4e in total! It was on the friggen Tonight Show a couple days ago!

Appreciate for a moment the monumental amount of sales they're having. This is a unique time in history - this hobby has hit mainstream. Consider the possibility that millions of people really DON'T want something different than this - they really do want this, and the preferences of people who even know anything could be different about the game are a tiny minority at this point.

Feeling like an edition has left you behind is a rough feeling and I genuinely sympathize with it (I've felt it before too). But there are so many other options out there. Why beat your head against an edition that really isn't going to match your preferences in terms of content output?

So nothing you've said that impacts my point at all. I don't think those 50%(I'll take you at your word since you've provided no links) of new players are ignorant and unable to understand that just because they only know the current release rate, that other rates are not possible. Nor do I think that a lot of them are unable to like the game, buying the books released, and yet somehow be unable to want more. It's very likely that a lot of them would enjoy more books. So while the sales is higher than ever(again you provided no link showing this to be true), that doesn't mean that sales wouldn't be better with a release rate that is a bit higher.

I don't feel left behind. For that to happen they'd have to have a release rate faster than a slug.

 

[Mistwell]

So nothing you've said that impacts my point at all. I don't think those 50%(I'll take you at your word since you've provided no links) of new players are ignorant and unable to understand that just because they only know the current release rate, that other rates are not possible.

Nice strawman. Of course a faster rate is "possible". We're discussing if the marketplace is wanting it, not whether it could be done.

Nor do I think that a lot of them are unable to like the game, buying the books released, and yet somehow be unable to want more.

Again a strawman. I didn't say people are "unable" to want more. They DON'T want more. WOTC has done a lot of market research on this issue, and every time they're getting a lot of good feedback that people do not want a significantly increased publication rate. In fact people are rating "slow release schedule" as a positive a lot with this edition.

It's very likely that a lot of them would enjoy more books. So while the sales is higher than ever(again you provided no link showing this to be true), that doesn't mean that sales wouldn't be better with a release rate that is a bit higher.

Look dude I am not going to do your homework for you on threads hundreds of us here have been discussing all year. If you ignored those threads and are interested, go find them. It's not my job to spoon feed you links to threads here you didn't bother to check out when they were news. Just about everything I mentioned has been front page news right here at ENWorld.

 

[Maxperson]

Nice strawman. Of course a faster rate is "possible". We're discussing if the marketplace is wanting it, not whether it could be done.

Seeing as I didn't attribute that argument to you, it's not a Strawman.

Again a strawman. I didn't say people are "unable" to want more.

And again, I didn't attribute that to you, so no Strawman.

They DON'T want more.

You have yet to provide any real proof of this. Good sales doesn't cut it, since you can enjoy buying the books and want to buy more books that aren't there.

WOTC has done a lot of market research on this issue, and every time they're getting a lot of good feedback that people do not want a significantly increased publication rate.

Cool. I never asked for a significantly increased rate. As for WotC and market research, they've screwed the pooch on that many times. They have done the research, but have proven unable to read it correctly.

Look dude I am not going to do your homework for you on threads hundreds of us here have been discussing all year. If you ignored those threads and are interested, go find them. It's not my job to spoon feed you links to threads here you didn't bother to check out when they were news. Just about everything I mentioned has been front page news right here at ENWorld.

Yes it is your job to back up your claims. That's how debate works.

 

[CapnZapp]

Here is my question to you, then: how do you introduce deep-crunch (that is, allowing for more complex character builds) without also introducing power creep?

Or I could rephrase: what are you hoping for to make your characters more complex without also making them more powerful?

An Advanced Player's Handbook with alternative PHB classes would be a good start. (Classes with more build options per level, I mean. Instead of the game choosing for you.)

 

[Ovinomancer]

Seeing as I didn't attribute that argument to you, it's not a Strawman.



And again, I didn't attribute that to you, so no Strawman.



You have yet to provide any real proof of this. Good sales doesn't cut it, since you can enjoy buying the books and want to buy more books that aren't there.



Cool. I never asked for a significantly increased rate. As for WotC and market research, they've screwed the pooch on that many times. They have done the research, but have proven unable to read it correctly.



Yes it is your job to back up your claims. That's how debate works.

Attribution isn't a requirement of a strawman.

 

[Sadras]

I'm very much on the slower end of the market when it comes to getting through the material (supplements + AP's) so for me, I'm thankful for the gradual release of new material. Hell I'm still running my ToD and SKT amalgamation.
I imagine many of those in the Delericho and Maxperson camp are able to get through the AP's quicker than most.

 

[Sadras]

An Advanced Player's Handbook with alternative PHB classes would be a good start. (Classes with more build options per level, I mean. Instead of the game choosing for you.)

I can see this - it may lean ever more so towards 3.x and Pathfinder, perhaps even go so far as introduce a classless system.

 

[Maxperson]

Attribution isn't a requirement of a strawman.

"strawman

You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.

By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate."

I didn't exaggerate, misrepresent, or fabricate his argument. I acknowledged his argument that 50% were new, and that sales were higher, even though he gave no proof of his statements of fact(bad faith there). The statements about what I think we're me arguing against his argument that I acknowledged. It was countering his assertion that I am somehow wrong because 1. new people, and 2. high sales. Neither of those has anything to do with whether or not people might want more a slightly increased amount of crunch.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm very much on the slower end of the market when it comes to getting through the material (supplements + AP's) so for me, I'm thankful for the gradual release of new material. Hell I'm still running my ToD and SKT amalgamation.
I imagine many of those in the Delericho and Maxperson camp are able to get through the AP's quicker than most.

I don't use APs. APs don't have anything to do with what we are asking for in any case, as they are pretty much just fluff.

 

[Ovinomancer]

"strawman

You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.

By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate."

I didn't exaggerate, misrepresent, or fabricate his argument. I acknowledged his argument that 50% were new, and that sales were higher, even though he gave no proof of his statements of fact(bad faith there). The statements about what I think we're me arguing against his argument that I acknowledged. It was countering his assertion that I am somehow wrong because 1. new people, and 2. high sales. Neither of those has anything to do with whether or not people might want more a slightly increased amount of crunch.

You do know we can just scroll up and re-read, right?