Anyone importing 4E’s’Used gear sells for 1/5th if at all’ to other RPG systems?

[smdmcl]

I am a fan of 4th edition and I like the 20% rule. It's an average re-sale value for used goods and it's no better or worse than the 50% assumption. A more realistic value can be set by a DM depending on the items being re-sold on a case-by-case basis, if they can be bothered.

A longsword taken from the hands of a bandit might be worth 50% or more to a local merchant but 548 longswords looted from a battle field would more likely be sold en-masse to a middleman who wouldn't pay anywhere near the 50% value.

A suit of hide armour taken from the corpse of a dirty orc wouldn't be worth 20% of book value to a local merchant and he'd probably want the "flea infested rags out of his shop at once" when trying to sell them.

In the end, the 20% rule works better for me because I can place "real treasure" on the NPCs without having to worry about the gear I give them unbalancing the player 'economy'. If the players want to loot the corpses and then role-play getting these items to market to get the best prices then I would be willing to do that. If they decided that this was 'fun' for them then I would have to make a change to start calculating the gear the NPC's carry as a part of their wealth and reduce the actual coins, gems, jewels, etc. that they carry to balance it. Luckily, my characters aren't interested in this market role-play and I do not have to adjust the calculations.

One more point with regards to the Humvee. I don't think that this is the only real world example that can be used to compare to magic items. I play hockey and a new pair of high end skates (Skates +1?) can cost $600 - $700 or more (Santa, are you listening?). After 1 season wearing these new skates you'd be lucky to be able to sell them used (hopefully not after looting my body) for $200 and I doubt you could get much more than $100. Why is the 20% value real for a great pair of hockey skates used for 1 old-timer season and not for a suit of chainmail used for 1 military campaign?

There are a lot of reasons why skates are and are not a good example to compare to magic-items. I think the main reason it works is that it brings up the question of how many people are actually in the market for a pair of skates +1 or chainmail +1? A merchant who buys something that they know is going to sell is willing to pay more for that item. A merchant who agrees to buy an exotic item (isn't magic exotic in your world?) may never actually know when, or for how much they will be able to sell the item and would be willing to pay much less than what the item is worth.

 

[pawsplay]

One more point with regards to the Humvee. I don't think that this is the only real world example that can be used to compare to magic items. I play hockey and a new pair of high end skates (Skates +1?) can cost $600 - $700 or more (Santa, are you listening?). After 1 season wearing these new skates you'd be lucky to be able to sell them used (hopefully not after looting my body) for $200 and I doubt you could get much more than $100. Why is the 20% value real for a great pair of hockey skates used for 1 old-timer season and not for a suit of chainmail used for 1 military campaign?

Because the skates are less valuable after having been used. Skates can be produced in qunatity but are fairly difficult to repair and maintain indefinitely. Whereas a chainmail shirt is labor intensive to produce but can be readily repaired, and worn for years until rust takes it. Chainmail shirts are also easily to size and resize, and are useful anywhere there is war, whereas competitive grade skates are a speciality, luxury item in the first place. To me a chainmail shirt is more comparable to a used vacuum cleaner, which will eventually wear out, but you're lucky to get a 25% discount versus a new one.

 

[Fifth Element]

Because the skates are less valuable after having been used. Skates can be produced in qunatity but are fairly difficult to repair and maintain indefinitely. Whereas a chainmail shirt is labor intensive to produce but can be readily repaired, and worn for years until rust takes it.

So are you advocating an item-by-item resale value system? As you say, some items would "realistically" have high resale values while others would not. 3E assumes the average to be 50%. 4E assumes the average to be 20%.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I think a far better comparison is the expensive consummable magic item of the 20th and 21st centurty, the automobile. Individual sellers can do far, far better than 50% of what a used car seller can do. You wouldn't see a 10% except for situations like auctions.

"Here is an expensive, powerful item that cannot be produced in mass quantities that I wrested from the hoard of an evil dragon. Please offer me an insultingly low percentage of its value, because I can think of no one who would possibly be interested in a powerful magical staff. Now excuse me while I stroll down to the local wizards' guild and pay five times that rate for a flaming sword."

And how much do you think you would get for the car if you did not possess the title?

The same is true of the buyer in D&D. How does he know you're telling the truth about killing the dragon and taking the sword? How does he know who the sword belonged to before the supposed dragon? What if it belonged to a local noble who discovers the vendor has his stolen sword? Even if he believes you about the dragon, how does he know you killed the dragon? What if the evil dragon comes looking for his hoard? The buyer is taking alot of risk buying items that were liberated from their former owner through violent deadly force.

Could you locate a buyer that believes your story and is willing to give you more? Sure, as I suggested before this could range from a Skill Challenge to a side adventure. 20% is the zero-effort way to get quick money for the stuff you don't want.

The comic book example above is another good one. He can't even give you 20% of the value of an expensive item. But he's willing to sell it for you for a 55% charge. You could try to make the same deal as a PC. Although then you won't get your money right away and you risk loss of the item if the seller is unscrupulous or runs into trouble and gets killed or robbed.

I like the new 20% baseline because it gives you room, if you wish, to seek out more through time and effort. And 50% is the max I could ever see a character receiving from a reseller. In 3E there was no room to imporve execpt to find an end user.

Bartering is also a good point. I don't feel that the rules are saying a merchant or other would only trade you something of 20% of the value of an item you are trying to barter. Again, this is a method that takes effort and the reward is trading an item you can't use for an item of equal value.

 

[Treebore]

Funniest thing I've heard all day!

Considering I was in the business of buying, making, selling, and faceting gemstones and jewelry for over 10 years its also one of the most knowledgeably said funny thing you have read all day.

 

[Raven Crowking]

So are you advocating an item-by-item resale value system?

That's what I use, FWIW. A sliding scale based on both the item and the purchaser.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

The comic book example above is another good one. He can't even give you 20% of the value of an expensive item. But he's willing to sell it for you for a 55% charge. You could try to make the same deal as a PC. Although then you won't get your money right away and you risk loss of the item if the seller is unscrupulous or runs into trouble and gets killed or robbed.

I have had PCs commission items for sale because they know they would get more in the long run, even if they get nothing upfront.

50% is typically the max you would get from a reseller, because reselling most items while paying more isn't worth your while. The exception is where an item is used as a cheap "draw" to get customers who will certainly buy more into your store.

For example, almost every convenience store you've ever walked into puts the milk in the back so that you have to walk past everything else to get it. This is because milk is a "draw" item. The owner wants you to see everything else, and maybe pick up some other things you need. He can mark down milk to get you into the store, because the value of the milk isn't in selling the milk itself -- it's in the candy bars, the cigarettes, the lottery tickets, etc., that you buy when you buy the milk.

Likewise, walk into almost any comic shop, and you'll find that the new comics are in the back. Same reason. A retailer who is trying to get more people in the store lowers the price on new materials first, because new materials are a better general "draw" than back issues. Back issue bin sales occur when the bins are getting too tight and the owner wants to make a little space.

IME, anyway.


RC

 

[malraux]

I'd assume that the 20% value is based on the efficiency of the remove enchantment ritual. For most users, the item is only worth what residuum you can get out, similar to how scrap dealers only care about how much metal they can get out. And residuum makes a lot of sense to be what a merchant cares about anyway. Its small, easily concealed, extremely sellable, etc.

And really, the other point of the magic selling system is to not prefer selling over crafting in the field.

 

[Treebore]

I think that you absolutely right in terms of modern economics. However, I don't think that most D&D games ought to simulate modern economics.

I'm going to use comic books as a model, because I am co-owner of Golden City Comics in Toronto. In the modern sense, a handful of old comic books are potentially worth a fair sum of money. However, they are worth absolutely nothing at Radio Shack. If you need something at Radio Shack, you would have to have a canny salesperson indeed to realize that the Amazing Fantasy #15 you are holding (1) is worth far more than the item you wish to purchase, and (2) is not a reprint.

In the world of D&D, though, a sword is as valuable in Hommlet as it is in Verbonc, as it is in Waterdeep, as it is in Sigil. Depending upon the condition of the gear, there are few places that cannot use arms and armour. The local economy may make a big difference in the price you are offered -- trying to sell meh swords in Toledo, Spain, is simply not a good idea.

It is difficult to imagine a D&D world where a sword or a suit of armour doesn't retain strong barter value.

The earliest "money" we know of was made of clay, and contained images of the items that were represented by the "money". "One cow" had, in effect, a stable value, even though two real cows are not always of equal worth.

Likewise, in some worlds, guilds might set the range of prices for which items can be bought and sold within a precinct. Then it becomes law that swords sold within the City of Greyhawk to the Swordmaster's Guild may be bought for X-Y gp, and sold by the Swordmaster's Guild for Y-Z gp.

Back in modern times, if you brought Amazing Fantasy #15 into Golden City Comics, I simply wouldn't have the means to give you 20% of its book value. That is one valuable book. I would be happy to sell it for you, giving you 45% of the take at no risk to myself. But a canny seller would use something along the lines of an auction house or ebay to capitalize on the book's value, possibly making far more than 50% of its cover.

So, within the context of my own campaign worlds, going back as far as Holmes Basic, there are folks who will buy some gear at par, quite a few folks who will buy at 50% (many retailers buy from wholesalers at 50% IRL), a few folks who will pay over par for some reason (if you can figure out who they are, knowing those people is a "treasure" all by itself), and more than a few people who will pay less than 50%.....sometimes 10%.......sometimes paying thieves 10% when you say No......for what you are trying to sell.

I actually find the "What are we going to do with this stuff?" part of the game to be fun, as player or DM. When the lair of an ethereal filcher is located in my world, it is not so much filled with magic items as with the sorts of things that mundanely disappear, a lot of junk, and thousands of mismatched socks........amid which the treasure is waiting to be recognized for what it is.

YMMV.


RC

Actually both he (being Harr, I agree with you RC) and peelseel are wrong, in general. I see people selling things for more than 20% all the time. Plus liquidators, like peelseel, are all there to get it at as low and profitable a price as possible to resell in a retail environment.

Plus you need to look at who your going to be selling to. Weapons, armor, magic items are not going to be sold to the common merchant. They are going to be sold to merchants with ties to the nobility and government. They need weapons and armor. If they can get good serviceable items for 50% rather than 100% they will happily go for 50%.

So I can see selling for 20%, but that depends on how savy the party members are. If they have any understanding of the market they are going to sell as close to the end consumer in the market chain as they can.

So I can see 20%, but I can also see 100%.

Why 100%? Because it is actually a simple matter to hire a full time seller for your recovered goods. Someone you pay a fixed wage to and offer your protection for doing your business. If you have a cleric in the party you can even offer awesome health care benefits to your employee and his family.

Now groups aren't going to do such things all the time or right away. It depends on how market savy they are, and how much value the items they recover have. Sooner or later they will be making enough money to hire a full time seller though. So unless they never figure out how much money they could make off of those hundreds, eventually even thousands, of weapons and armor, they will engage in a "business" where they can sell their stuff at 100%.

Which is good, because it opens up tons of adventure scenarios for the group. Sice it will be "personal", protecting their own business, it will have an extra depth of meaning and importance to your players. Its amazing how many notches your game kicks up when it becomes personal.

Now let me address the foolish idea that a Decanter of Endless Water is a "throw away" magic item. To me its one of the best. Especially if I am in a game where I am able to get it "Blessed". A Decanter of Endless BLESSED HOLY Water is a weapon of mass destruction against undead and even demons and devils. Even so, there are many situations where the undead are down in crypts, where water easily pools. Water that can then be blessed and become Holy Water.

Another cool use. An Orc lair down in caves. Put that Decanter on Geyser and you soon have a bunch of drowned Orcs.

Now say you have a town or city that gets their water from wells. Or worse, from a greedy order of clerics who charge you to create water at a very stiff price. Or worst of all, is in a very dry area where they gather their water via collectors of condensation. Those Decanters are very highly valuable to those communities.

Heck, I even have a city in my campaign world that is out in high desert mountains, but the city is lush and green and makes a fortune selling their fruits and vegetables to surrounding desert communities in trade. All because this cities ruler accumulated several Decanters of Endless Water.

So the Decanter of Endlesss Water is far from a throw away item, unless the players are very narrow minded and short sighted.

Plus there is a simple reason why magical items will never sell for less than 100%, unless it is a charged item like wands. They are relatively rare. There are millions of non magical swords in the world. Probably 100's of thousands of masterwork swords. There are only thousands, maybe 10's of thousands of magical swords that the millions of warriors around the world would like to have.

Unlike modern cars, homes, or even normal and masterwork swords, these magical swords can last for a thousand years. They are harder to break, harder to destroy, or ruin. So demand will always be high among communities who need to reliable defend themselves.

Not only that it is a very reasonable assumption that there are many other up and coming adventuring groups, groups who likely have more gold than they have magical weapons and armor. So they will be more than willing to buy a more successful groups "cast off" magic weapons and armor.

Now a segment of the market where 20% is feasible is wizard only magic items. They are a much more limited market. Where as you have millions of soldiers around the world you may have only 1,000's of wizards around the world.

Now it would be simplest to just assume they only make enough to barely meet demand for those who can't, or don't want to take the time, to make items that only wizards can use.

Which is actually very likely. They are far more likely to make boots, cloaks, rings, armor, weapons, etc... that those 1,000's of warriors would want to buy as soon as they could. So a wizard is far more likely to only make items for themselves to use when it comes to wizard only items. Sure, they get the occasional commission from other wizards to make them such items, but at least 50% of the time the wizard will only have, and take, the time to make items for themselves. Probably financed by all those weapons, armor, boots, cloaks, rings, etc... they made for those millions of warriors to fight over.

So making the assumption that there is, or barely is not, enough such items to meet demand is very plausible.

So even though 20% can be realistic, it depends on the position within the market chain you are selling at.

Remember, the only reason Adventurers can make such huge profit margins on these items is they did not pay to have them made. They did not buy from a wholesaler or retailer. They have ready made products that they have inherited due to risking their lives in bloody battle. No real cash investment whatsoever. So whatever price they sell at is still 100% profit for them.

So if they have accumulated 100 good long swords that retail at 15 gold, the closer to that 15 gold they can sell, the better their profit. Its much better to make 1500 GP than it is to make 300 GP. The more consistently your able to sell closer to 15 GP the better.

Now there are all kinds of details a DM can go into to lessen these profit margins. You can give each piece a "condition", which infers reliability, or unreliable. Then alter the price based on these conditions. Who the heck wants to track the condition of what will eventually be 1,000's of items in a campaign?

Not me!

So going on a "average" assumption of 50% is much easier, and much fairer, in the long run.

Magic items should always get premium prices. These are rare items that WILL make the difference between life and death. Success or failure. So they will always command top prices.

Obviously exceptions can always be negotiated or created. However, unless you want to keep such details recorded, a general and averaged rule of thumb is much easier, and much fairer, to those playing the game.

Otherwise your going to have a player come along and realize what baloney 20% is and make you record "conditions", etc... so you can keep them from getting 100% of retail as much as possible.

I guarantee you if I ever play in a campaign where only 20% is given, that DM better be prepared to keep me from making a fortune. Plus they better like such details in their games, because their game is gonna have it if I am in it and they only give 20%.

 

[smdmcl]

20% is the zero-effort way to get quick money for the stuff you don't want.

This. The way I see it, you get 20% of the value for no questions asked. If you follow Treebore's example and find a drought ravaged village situated on top of the crypts of a vampire's coven then your Decanter of Endless HOLY Water could easily be worth more than 100%.

It's always situational, it's going to be different in every campaign and I think 20% is a better baseline than 50% for this reason. Groups that want to take steps to get higher than 20% should be able to do so but I think that, as a default zero-effort value, 50% is too high.