Anyone importing 4E’s’Used gear sells for 1/5th if at all’ to other RPG systems?

[Lanefan]

Why wait for the random chance that another "adventurer" will come around with the armor you want? What if you carry that +2 flail around for months waiting to find someone who wants to trade for it? Instead I'll go sell it and any other items I don't want to a merchant for the 20% Residuum value and with the Residuum drained from the item the merchant can make whatever item I want within an hour. Items on demand that my character can make use of instead of carrying around useless items waiting for the chance of finding someone to trade.

"Items on demand" was one of the worst features of 3e; and now, it seems, of 4e.

The "Residuum Market" is what makes 4E's 20% rule work (granted they could have chosen any % as the Residuum value). And I like the model it creates. It explains why characters can almost always find a buyer, why they can almost always find the item they want, and how merchants are able to avoid all the other problems that arose around this debate in the past (defense, finding buyers, magic shops, etc).

So maybe you don't like the 20% rule. The percentage isn't really all that important, it is just a balancing tool. Changing it in 4E could throw off balance. But the real gem in 4E is the idea that seemed kinda hokey at first, Residuum. This thread has helped me pace through the magic item economy and helped me realize that Residuum is a really good idea. I could totally see porting this into 3E. You could keep the 50% value for Residuum. You would just have to houserule a way to extract it from a magic item.

Quite true. Speaking only for myself, I long ago dreamed up a pretty robust way of incorporating magic into real-world physics that makes explaining things *so* much easier...if I'd never done that, and was looking for a way of plugging magic into the physical universe, residuum would look like a mighty fine start. But it doesn't work in the system I have now.

I'm not so sure the 20% is so much a balancing tool as it is a discouragement tool - the game's way of saying to players "don't bother selling your loot" and to DMs "better put items in your adventures that suit the party". Thing is, I'd far rather put mostly random gype in the treasure hoards (as would be somewhat realistic) and let the party sort it out for themselves.

Lanefan

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm not so sure the 20% is so much a balancing tool as it is a discouragement tool - the game's way of saying to players "don't bother selling your loot" and to DMs "better put items in your adventures that suit the party". Thing is, I'd far rather put mostly random gype in the treasure hoards (as would be somewhat realistic) and let the party sort it out for themselves.

Lanefan

I like to substitute "somewhat realistic" with "narrative causality".
I see your point, though. I think random treasure works well in the following case:
- There is no reliable way to sell and buy items.
- Magical Items don't grant pure power (like +X bonus to hit, damage or AC), merely a few different options. (A sword that deals fire instead of weapon damage. A everburning torch. A armor that can change its type. Wings for flying long ranges. Boots of teleportation). So while there are items you will find desirable (who wouldn't want to fly), you don't need them to fulfill your job.

If you don't have the latter, balance is all over the place depending on your luck in rolling random treasure. (It's like 10,000 +1 Longswords if all you need is a +2 Dwarven Waraxe)
If you have the first, people will just sell everything they find and buy the things they want, creating standard sets of items everyone has.

If you have neither, you get the magical Christmas tree of 3E, and everyone trying to optimize his gear with stat, attack and defense boosters, and "interesting" items like a armor that changes its type and a sword that can also deal some flaming damage getting thrown away.

I don't like the decision of 4E to keep the +X items in play, but since it does, the treasure parcel system and the suggestion to give players items they need, not some random junk, at least avoids the annoying idea of lumping around 8 +1 weapons you only want to sell for that +2 weapon of your favorite kind...

 

[FireLance]

"Items on demand" was one of the worst features of 3e; and now, it seems, of 4e.

I'm curious: do you think so because of the lack of mystery, player entitlement, facilitation of min-maxing, or some other reason?

 

[Lanefan]

I'm curious: do you think so because of the lack of mystery, player entitlement, facilitation of min-maxing, or some other reason?

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

The "other" would be that it all became...for lack of a better term...just too easy. Need a +2 Ring of Protection? Ask yer party wizard to build it; it'll be done tomorrow - or maybe the next day.

Lanefan

 

[Kraydak]

I like to substitute "somewhat realistic" with "narrative causality".
I see your point, though. I think random treasure works well in the following case:
- There is no reliable way to sell and buy items.
...

From a game quality POV, the opposite is true. Random equipment is bad from a RL party contentment POV (see MMORPG guild loot drama for why. PnP gaming mitigates such problems explicitly by making loot non-random).

So, if you want "random" loot (more generally, non-tailored loot), for RL harmony you need tradeable loot. Of course, tradeable loot makes great sense when combined with human psychology (magic items will be bought/sold/traded), so win-win!

Yes, you theoretically lose on the "mystique" side of magic items. On the other hand, in the same way that Christmas presents become ho-hum within the week, cool magic items become mere tools by the next session. "Mystique" never works in practice, and any attempt to capture it will result in disappointment on the DM's part (and the players' too, if the DM tries too hard). It sucks, true, but it is better to plan around reality than to try and fight it.

 

[justanobody]

So would planning around reality mean the Xmas magic items and selling at 20%, or random loot than could vary in price when sold?