Anyone importing 4E’s’Used gear sells for 1/5th if at all’ to other RPG systems?

[FireLance]

Does the game assume that the players can customize their characters via magic items they choose?

If so, then you have one of two options.

Either you have all characters able to innately create magic items or you have a way for characters to buy magic items.

Actually, there are several other options:

3. The DM ensures that the magic items that the players want are found as treasure or given as rewards, and ensures that the magic items that the players are giving up (at whatever mutually agreed rate of exchange, from 0% to 50%) are destroyed, stolen, or otherwise lost.

4. The PCs all work for an organization that keeps them supplied with gear, and as the PCs gain levels, they gain access to better and more valuable equipment.

5. The PC are rewarded by the local authorities. Occasionally, these rewards are in the form of superior trade-ins, e.g. the PCs give up a lesser magic item for a more powerful one.

The assumed trade-in rate for magic items is a game balance issue. A DM who wants to tinker with the standard trade-in rate will just have to keep an eye out for potential game balance problems. If he is already doing that, he can set the rate to whatever he and his players are comfortable with.

How the PCs lose (including sale or trade in) and gain magic items is a narration issue. The DM can handwave the narration if he and his players don't want to dwell on that part of the game, or just come up with one or more standard explanantion: anything from magic item stores to wandering merchants to the PCs making their own magic items to the PCs being supplied their gear by the organization they work for to the PCs being rewarded by the local authorities to plot-driven loss and discovery of magic items to the PCs being friendly with a wizard who upgrades their gear for them, etc.

 

[Lanefan]

So you end up with stuff to sell when it has become of less use. You swapped out power X for power Y and now the weapon needed it different and you no longer need the weapon that is +1 less and the wrong keyword for this new power so you have a need to sell it.

Where do you sell it? Well the DM says that a merchant will show up to buy it for 20% ...

That right there is the biggest underlying mistake of this whole affair: that you'll always be selling magic items to a merchant. It makes far more sense to think you'll most often be selling them direct to other adventurers, via contacts made through guilds, taverns, and so forth...and when selling direct like this, you'll get far more than 20%, too. (unless, of course, your DM is willoing to let you *buy* from other adventurers at 20% also; it has to work both ways...)

Where are these merchants getting this money? How are they traveling around and keeping hold of this money to buy a level 10 magic item? What are they doing with all these magic items, and who ends up with them?

For merchants to just be willing to buy any old magic item then you have defaulted to creating a magic heavy world. Because merchants just happened to have enough money and be willing to part with it for something that they may otherwise never sell.

Again, solved if you're instead selling (usually) to other adventurers, at close to full price; or as close as the DM is willing to let you buy items at when you're on the other end of the transaction.

The corollary here, of course, is that the items for sale at any given time are going to be (and have to be!) RANDOM. If a character is looking for a specific thing - let's say a longbow +2 - then you as DM quickly determine the chance of one being for sale right now, and roll. If players simply ask "what's for sale" then you'll have to generate a shopping list - this takes time and is something that desperately needs a computer program to help with - of some random stuff that other adventurers are trying to part with.

Lanefan

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

That right there is the biggest underlying mistake of this whole affair: that you'll always be selling magic items to a merchant. It makes far more sense to think you'll most often be selling them direct to other adventurers, via contacts made through guilds, taverns, and so forth...

I think this idea has the underlying mistake that you will find someone who wants to buy the specific item you are trying to sell. Why are they going to buy your +1 vicious longsword when the merchant down the street can guarantee them a +1 thundering maul in a hour? Granted, they have to pay 10-40% more to get the item, but it is the specific item they want instead of the best they can find. Or should they wait around until another adventurer happens to find a +1 thundering maul and wants to sell it?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think this idea has the underlying mistake that you will find someone who wants to buy the specific item you are trying to sell. Why are they going to buy your +1 vicious longsword when the merchant down the street can guarantee them a +1 thundering maul in a hour? Granted, they have to pay 10-40% more to get the item, but it is the specific item they want instead of the best they can find. Or should they wait around until another adventurer happens to find a +1 thundering maul and wants to sell it?

Another possible mistake: What other adventurer?

 

[Wombat]

Nope reason to import this rule.

Already got similar systems from other games in the past.

Sounds like D&D is slowly catching up in some areas ... and still concentrating on combat above all else. Not my style of gaming.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Another possible mistake: What other adventurer?

I had thought to comment on that, but he did mention adventurer's guilds. I agree though that 4E has a default assumption that the PCs are more unique. I heard they killed off a bunch of NPCs in the Realms for that reason.

 

[justanobody]

The reason why it doesn't matter is because of my ORIGINAL point.

Does the game assume that the players can customize their characters via magic items they choose?

If so, then you have one of two options.

Either you have all characters able to innately create magic items or you have a way for characters to buy magic items.

How is my assumption incorrect and indicates that I sell used cars?

It just seemed like something the last person that tried to sell me a car would have done. A bit of clever advertising.

Sadly the system does want player to customize with magic items and for them to choose as the way it is described, but this does not translate to buying magic items as being the problem for only being able to sell them at 20%.

That right there is the biggest underlying mistake of this whole affair: that you'll always be selling magic items to a merchant. It makes far more sense to think you'll most often be selling them direct to other adventurers

It doesn't matter how you assume "other adventurers" exist, the fact of the matter is you never want your player party coming into contact with something resembling another player party. This throws off the whole aspect that the players are the main focal point of the story. Sure there are people out there doing similar things, but even without predestoned futures the player's PCs are more important than any NPC because it is a story about the players. Anything that deviates and gives a higher focus to some group other than the players are involved in has been a bad judgment by the DM for a roleplaying game, and would be best to just write a novel about his NPCs.

PCs sell to merchants. Even if they place it in the guild for commission they are effectively selling to a merchant or a fence, and the book says 20%.

All those things I said earlier about the problems are still true. The book says a merchant appears to buy form the PCs as the default of the system built. This assures quick money for the PCs and less hassle for a more streamlined game, but destroys any economic play and sense at all. It should have been made an optional rule for ease of use, and maybe a standard rule for RPGA to keep things all on the same level, but to say that is how it shoudl be done is where the flaw lies.

The cost of what you are telling people for ease is not worth the return you get from that ease when people want to adhere fervently to that system built into the game.

Another possible mistake: What other adventurer?

Technically true. The player party are the only "adventurers" and everything is is just NPCs, unless you start swapping items form one RPGA venue to the next. I have yet to face an NPC adventuer from the MM myself.

I had thought to comment on that, but he did mention adventurer's guilds. I agree though that 4E has a default assumption that the PCs are more unique. I heard they killed off a bunch of NPCs in the Realms for that reason.

I think the PCs should be the only things called adventurers even though there could be a in-game guild called this. Another hard part of discussions where in game and out of game one word has different meanings. I think it also extends beyond just 4E and even D&D where the "adventurers" as it were are the players groups of characters.

 

[Lanefan]

It doesn't matter how you assume "other adventurers" exist, the fact of the matter is you never want your player party coming into contact with something resembling another player party.

And why the frakety-frak-frak not???

This throws off the whole aspect that the players are the main focal point of the story. Sure there are people out there doing similar things, but even without predestoned futures the player's PCs are more important than any NPC because it is a story about the players. Anything that deviates and gives a higher focus to some group other than the players are involved in has been a bad judgment by the DM for a roleplaying game, and would be best to just write a novel about his NPCs.

The PCs have to realize, however, that they are not the only adventurers out there; if 4e is trying to imply that they are, that's a design flaw that shatters the game.

The PCs, like it or not, operate in a world - whatever world that may be - that has in it people less powerful, as powerful, and more powerful than they are. When they go to town to get a resurrection cast, for example, where did the casting Cleric get all her levels from? Adventuring, perhaps?

Which means, by default, that there's going to be other adventurers out there. Sometimes, those adventurers might compete with the PCs for the same resources...two groups, for example, trying to be first to reach some goal; or two parties destined to fight each other for some reason (warning, though; those combats are a bugger to run!).

And, again by default, if there's other adventurers out there it only stands to reason there'll be some direct contact between them, allowing the possibility of direct trade in magic items maybe even at full price.

PCs sell to merchants. Even if they place it in the guild for commission they are effectively selling to a merchant or a fence, and the book says 20%.

Who said anything about placing it in a guild? I'm a Fighter, in town for a break, and I've got a spare Flail +2. I stop by the local mercenaries' guild and bump into Hjorth, another Fighter from up north, who has Flail as his <insert favoured weapon mechanic name here>. Horth just picked up a nice suit of scale mail +1 and I need new armour; mine got melted last trip out. An obvious trade situation, without any of this 20% garbage.

Technically true. The player party are the only "adventurers" and everything is is just NPCs, unless you start swapping items form one RPGA venue to the next. I have yet to face an NPC adventuer from the MM myself.

Huh?

What's the RPGA got to do with anything?

If the PC party bumps into some Dwarf, asks the Dwarf what he does for a living, and gets "adventurer" back as an answer, then bang goes that theory regardless whether or not said Dwarf ever joins the party, then or later.

4e wants PCs to be special flowers...but let's not take it too far.

I think the PCs should be the only things called adventurers even though there could be a in-game guild called this. Another hard part of discussions where in game and out of game one word has different meanings. I think it also extends beyond just 4E and even D&D where the "adventurers" as it were are the players groups of characters.

If it's levelled, has a class, and makes its living by killing things and taking their stuff, it's an adventurer. Whether it has a player attached to it or not is immaterial.

And, to drag this back toward the topic, adventurers are likely to form like-minded guilds (thieves, assassins, and wizards in particular) while clerics have it built in as part of their temple structure. Once this happens, there'll be trade and talk within those guilds...stories will get told, information will get shared, and items will be bartered.

Lane-"haven't paid my guild dues"-fan

 

[justanobody]

AThe PCs have to realize, however, that they are not the only adventurers out there; if 4e is trying to imply that they are, that's a design flaw that shatters the game.

Oh it ain't just 4e, but all editions that should stress that the players are the only adventurers out there.

Everything else is an NPC and operates under different rules even for editions where the NPC is created using the same rules as the PC.

The main difference is the assumed economy that 4e overstresses. The fact that money grows on trees and the NPCs can always have enough for what they need.

While this is true, you don't expect just any NPC to buy anything. What the NPCs need is only so far as what their role in the story dictates. Farmer John does not have the money laying around for buy the level 9 magic item for his son to go off to new lands seeking adventure.

The city guard has more access to money more than likely, but doesn't do the same thing the PCs do.

The PCs get into more dangerous situations more often, and do more over the course of their careers than any of these wouldbe adventurers you want to speak of. That is what makes them special, and should not have the game degraded to just saying there are roving bands of people equal to the PC party. So finding another group of adventurers like the PCs should never happen.

Those guild may exist that the PCs interact with that could help them, but in fact they are pretty much working under the guise of merchants when things are sold for 20%, and the 20% rules if for those magic merchants that pop up out of holes in the grounds to buy things from the PCs whenever they happen to have things they wish to get rid of.

The principle of the 20% rule is what you are forgetting.

By adding all this other stuff, you only prove how futile the 20% rule is, because there are better ways to do it. All the more reason NOT to import this 20% rule for items into other games, that do not rely on the cohesion of the 4th edition rules for balance.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

And why the frakety-frak-frak not???The PCs have to realize, however, that they are not the only adventurers out there; if 4e is trying to imply that they are, that's a design flaw that shatters the game.

It doesn't shatter the game. At least not in 4E.

The PCs, like it or not, operate in a world - whatever world that may be - that has in it people less powerful, as powerful, and more powerful than they are. When they go to town to get a resurrection cast, for example, where did the casting Cleric get all her levels from? Adventuring, perhaps?

The guy casting resurrection is not a high level Cleric. He is merely an NPC that can cast this ritual.
Or there just ain't anyone around casting raise dead. Depends on your preference. Since PCs don't die all the time due to save or die effects, this shouldn't be a much of a problem. Sometimes, death is permanent.

Which means, by default, that there's going to be other adventurers out there. Sometimes, those adventurers might compete with the PCs for the same resources...two groups, for example, trying to be first to reach some goal; or two parties destined to fight each other for some reason (warning, though; those combats are a bugger to run!).


And, again by default, if there's other adventurers out there it only stands to reason there'll be some direct contact between them, allowing the possibility of direct trade in magic items maybe even at full price.

That's possible, but you're not selling stuff to your antagonists.

Who said anything about placing it in a guild? I'm a Fighter, in town for a break, and I've got a spare Flail +2. I stop by the local mercenaries' guild and bump into Hjorth, another Fighter from up north, who has Flail as his <insert favoured weapon mechanic name here>. Horth just picked up a nice suit of scale mail +1 and I need new armour; mine got melted last trip out. An obvious trade situation, without any of this 20% garbage.
Huh?

The local mercenaries might simply not have these aforementioned +1 scale mails. Because they don't reach the levels the PCs do. Finding a mercenary that does have this kind of equipment or money to give to you might be its own adventure or quest, and the reward for this just happens to be equal to the "missing" 80 % in form of the mercenary trading you his equipment.

What's the RPGA got to do with anything?

Probably only justanobody knows...

If the PC party bumps into some Dwarf, asks the Dwarf what he does for a living, and gets "adventurer" back as an answer, then bang goes that theory regardless whether or not said Dwarf ever joins the party, then or later.

4e wants PCs to be special flowers...but let's not take it too far.
If it's levelled, has a class, and makes its living by killing things and taking their stuff, it's an adventurer. Whether it has a player attached to it or not is immaterial.

And, to drag this back toward the topic, adventurers are likely to form like-minded guilds (thieves, assassins, and wizards in particular) while clerics have it built in as part of their temple structure. Once this happens, there'll be trade and talk within those guilds...stories will get told, information will get shared, and items will be bartered.

Lane-"haven't paid my guild dues"-fan

This doesn't have to be a default assumption. There are no adventurers guild in Lord of the Ring. (At points like these I regret that I don't read much fantasy and can only point to one or two universes.)