D&D 4E Anyone make a Binder class for 4E?

[Draz]

That sounds better than my idea to make a class of it.

By my understanding Rituals are designed so that they are useful to cover gaps in a party... not got a Rogue? Use Knock, otherwise just get the rogue to do it, it's quicker and cheaper.

Binder rituals could do the same thing for combat. You do a 5 minute ritual and get some of your powers replaced. Each Vestige can have 2-3 powers (at-wills, encounter, daily or utility) that produce a certain role.

Got no wizard and you're about to fight a hoard of minions? Better bind a vestige that lets you gain some controller powers.
You are a Wizard and you're going to fight a single big boss... get some striker powers.

i.e. you do the ritual to fill in for combat roles you may be lacking in, much like normal rituals work in non-combat.
To make it useful you may need to call the vestige in mid-combat then perform the ritual to calm it after the fight is over (or be cursed).

This sounds cool. Much better than having a Binder class.

However, I almost feel like Vestige Pact Rituals, being so flexible, should be separated somehow from other rituals. Having Diplomacy as their key skill is a good start. But what about requiring a separate feat, instead of Ritual Casting, to allow access to Vestige Pacts?

A nod to a connection between Warlocks and Vestige Pact Rituals would be nice, too. Maybe the prerequistie for the Contact Vestige feat could be, "Ritual Casting feat OR Warlock class."

 

[ziegander]

I'd suggest that the at-will/encounter/daily powers only replace the highest level available power of the user... so they keep access to their other abilities to avoid being one trick ponies for the encounter. It also means if you use the daily ability of the vestige you have spent one of your own daily abilities, which strikes me as fair.

The reason I think completely replacing all of the player's powers with the Vestige's powers is a good idea is because the pacts are so versatile and because they allow a Fighter to become a Controller for as long as he wants, and whenever it is needed. If the pacts only replaced the highest level powers you'd have something of equivalent value to multiclassing but INCREDIBLY easier and simultaneously more powerful than standard 4E multiclassing.

Pact Augmentations, I'm a bit iffy about, the numbers in 4E are quite well controlled and anything new that boosts them seems a little dangerous. I'd suggest that instead you can use them to gain the binding features and recharge power.

Indeed, Many of these may need to be rethought, especally the attack and damage bonuses. I was just directly translating the 3.5 Pact Augments. Instead of gaining those types of bonuses getting to keep some of your old features and powers, and access to the recharge power may be apt Pact Augments.

I am glad that on the whole people really seem to like the idea. I was honestly expecting a lot of backlash from people wanting a "Binder" rather than people being so excepting of the "anyone as Binder" concept I've got rolling.

My main question is how should Vestige Influence work in this system? The way I have it with Amon is just not working for me. Making a Bad Pact should definitely be a bad thing. Oh, and also if someone thinks any of my numbers ae off, go ahead and suggest corrections.

Finally, about a pdf, I'm not good with Adobe at all, but if someone wants to work with me to provide one I'd be more than willing to develop crunch. That's what I do.

 

[lordkiwi]

The fighter can't become a controller for as long as they like, it requires cash, time and the risk of it going wrong.

If you can accept that, then maybe if you get a bad pact it happens your way, replacing powers, as well as giving suggested modifications to the character's appearance/behaviour. I wouldn't go as far as alignment change, more like suggesting a personality shift, with a focus on how that would affect the character in combat.

Really I'm quibbling over specific, I'd be happy to help write up some vestiges either as they stand, or preferably once the system's been ironed out a bit.

As for PDFs, write it in your favourite word processor then print to PDF using this... http://www.pdf995.com/ (it's free).

Lord Kiwi,

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Just checking back, and I really like ziegander's idea as well. I have a few suggestions to make, though.

I am glad that on the whole people really seem to like the idea. I was honestly expecting a lot of backlash from people wanting a "Binder" rather than people being so excepting of the "anyone as Binder" concept I've got rolling.

Along the lines of "anyone as binder"....Apparently in the upcoming FRCS, there's going to be a separate class for those with Spellscars (don't ask me what they are; "something to do with the Spellplague" is all I know about it)...but it's going to be multiclass-only. That brings up an interesting idea for the Binder "class"--what if we made it multiclass-only? That would significantly shrink the amount of writing we would have to do with each vestige, and it would make a Binder class for those who want one.

Going off of ziegander's idea, anyone can use the Bind Vestige ritual as written, with the addition of a sign for every vestige that is shown as long as it is bound, and you don't get Pact Augmentation by default. The Binder class grants additional benefits based on the multiclass features chosen:

Pact Binder: You gain the Pact Augmentation benefits of the Bind Vestige ritual.

Binding Initiate: You replace your two highest-level encounter powers with the encounter power of a bound vestige, and your two highest-level utility powers with the recharge power of a bound vestige, instead of having them replace all of your encounter and utility powers.

Binding Adept: You replace a single at-will power with the at-will power of a bound vestige, and your two highest-level daily powers with the daily power of a bound vestige, instead of having them replace all of your at-will and daily powers.

Binding Master: You retain your class features while you have bound a vestige, rather than having the vestige's features replace your own.

Then you could have a Dedicated Binder paragon path that would let you do some more trademark binder things. Off the top of my head:

Prerequisite: Pact Binder feat and at least 1 other Binder feat.

Suppress Sign (11th Level): You may suppress the sign of a bound vestige.

Quick-Bind Action (11th Level): In a round you spend an action point, you may dismiss a bound vestige as a minor action whether you made a good or bad pact. In addition, a dismissed vestige will answer your next call, but with a +10 to the DC, rather than staying away for 1 week.

Multiple Bind (16th Level): You may bind two vestiges at one time, and the number of vestiges you may bind in a single day increases to 4 at the paragon tier and 6 at the Epic tier. If you bind two vestiges at once, together they replace all of your powers and class features as normal for the Bind Vestige ritual (though not each other's, obviously), regardless of any Binder feats you have.

Powers

Dismiss Vestige (Encounter): Any vestiges bound by your target are dismissed.

Vestigewrack (Utility): You gain a +5 power bonus to Diplomacy checks to bind a vestige.

Sacred Seal: (Daily): You may automatically recharge your bound vestiges' recharge abilities as a minor action.

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That balances out the gaining of additional power and Pact Augmentation a bit (those parts that are a bit unbalancing at first) by requiring feats, and the Path lets you bring in some more 3e flavor.

Thoughts?

 

[ziegander]

The fighter can't become a controller for as long as they like, it requires cash, time and the risk of it going wrong.

It takes 10 minutes, and yes some cash, but if he wanted he could remain bound all day if he wanted.

In my original plans Vestiges would continue to grant more powers as they went up in levels, just as players continue to gain a larger cache of powers themselves.

@Eldritch Lord: I like some of what you're saying. The paragon path stuff you're working with sounds pretty nice, albieit I guess I'm worried about it being far too circumstantial, but other than that I like where you're going. As far as a "multiclass-only" Binder class, that could be something to look into, but how would you gain it's "class features" and what role would a "Binder class" have? In my mind, just because a class is multiclass-only that doesn't mean it shouldn't be designed like other classes (then again, I'm still really unsure what Wizards is going to be doing with 4E as they continue to build upon it).

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

I like some of what you're saying. The paragon path stuff you're working with sounds pretty nice, albieit I guess I'm worried about it being far too circumstantial, but other than that I like where you're going.

Well, some of the other Paths are a bit circumstantial as well; Wizard of the Spiral Tower, for example, is recommended on the Wizards boards only if you're a multiclasses wizard/[Martial class] who wants to use a longsword. Like I said, it was more of an off-the-cuff flavor thing anyway.

As far as a "multiclass-only" Binder class, that could be something to look into, but how would you gain it's "class features" and what role would a "Binder class" have?

That's the thing: It's multiclass-only, so it effectively only has the one feature and 3 powers. (Well, at least that's the impression I've gotten from the FR thing.) That's why you'd want to do this; a Binder can be anyone with the ritual, so you'd want to make a minimal investment into it rather than a whole class for it.

As for the role, we've already determined that the Binder's role changes with every vestige, so that's not a problem.

In my mind, just because a class is multiclass-only that doesn't mean it shouldn't be designed like other classes (then again, I'm still really unsure what Wizards is going to be doing with 4E as they continue to build upon it).

Again, the multiclass-only thing isn't official yet, just previews, so I could be doing it completely wrong. I think it is a good idea as it is, though; if you think of it as simply a feat chain containing 4 feats with the [Binder] keyword, does that make it any more palatable?

 

[lordkiwi]

I like Eldritch Lord's ideas for feats. It's a nice compromise between what I want and what ziegander wants imo. I don't think you need to call them multiclass feats, after all they aren't exactly the same as regular multiclass feats.... and then you don't have to worry about the Binder class design, since there still is no class, just some supporting feats.

Not so hot on the Paragon Path, as ziegander says, it's very situational. I'd prefer to devote paragon paths to being perminetly bound to certain vestiges (I think their was at least one PrC in 3E that did that).

Lord Kiwi,

 

[ziegander]

Yeah, just thinking of it as a collection of feats seems to be very appropriate. So it looks like the general consensus is that, at the base, as long as you have the Ritual Casting feat you use the ritual as I have written above. Then there are what 3 or 4 other feats you can pick up to really make you a master Binder if you'd like. These give you access to Pact Augmentations, and allow you to keep some of your original class features and even powers as you Bind Vestiges.

Also, something I have forgotten to address in my original write up is what happens if you use the Vestige's daily power and then expel the vestige? The reasonable thing to do is to chalk off your highest level daily power after expelling the vestige and call it square. I suppose the same could be said for using vestige encounter powers and expelling vestiges in the middle of combat.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Also, something I have forgotten to address in my original write up is what happens if you use the Vestige's daily power and then expel the vestige? The reasonable thing to do is to chalk off your highest level daily power after expelling the vestige and call it square. I suppose the same could be said for using vestige encounter powers and expelling vestiges in the middle of combat.

The way I see it is that the vestige is using your innate power and transforming it as it's used. So you actually cast your magic missile spell (for example)...but in between finishing the casting and the missile launching, Amon's power turns it into a flame shot (or something less flashy, but you get the idea.) Under that system, using up your own powers and having them gone after vestiges are expelled makes perfect sense.

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Re: the Dedicated Binder path:

It's really there for three things: binding multiple vestiges, expelling them without ticking them off, and insta-recharging vestige abilities. The other things are fluff. Like I said, I just made it off-the-cuff, but I don't think we should dismiss it just because it's somewhat specific (because if you dismiss it, it'll be angry and won't come back for a week. )

 

[lordkiwi]

I'd agree with using up powers.

As for the Paragon Path, maybe it can be saved, it just needs some work IMO.

One thing we should add is a minimum level slot required for each power the vestige grants. This makes binding multiple vestiges (using the Paragon Path) easier to adjudicate and maybe you could also bind a vestige into your lower level power slots, which keeps lower level vestiges worthwhile for longer. It's also helpful to balance the powers against the existing classes.

i.e. Amon has a level 1 Encounter and level 1 Daily... if you have the right feats so can retain your powers you only need to give up a level 1 slot of each type, rather than your highest level.

Lord Kiwi,