AoO versus own group?

[Selganor]

Is it possible to perform an AoO against a party member or other ally if he does an action in your threatened area that provokes an AoO?

I am just wondering...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Depends.

Specifically, the rules text that mentions provoking an AoO talks only about enemies. Many (if not the overwhelming majority of) people rule this to mean that only enemies can provoke, and therefore allies cannot.

[EDIT]
Specifically:

An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you.

[/EDIT]

Personally, I figure those rules include a base assumption that you only threaten your enemies and never your own allies, and since you can only take an AoO against something you threaten, you can never take an AoO against an ally.

I'd allow someone to state that he wants to be considered as threatening his own allies in combat (which would mean he could take AoOs against them), but then he'd also count as threatening that ally for other purposes, as well (like providing flanking to others, likely to be killed once the rest of his party figures out what he's doing, etc.).

After all, threatening something means you are actively trying to hit them throughout the combat round, even if you never roll a to-hit roll.

 

[Jdvn1]

Yeah, sure. Why not? You can turn against allies too, and they're not allies anymore...

 

[Selganor]

But once you turn against an ally you would no longer be affected by such spells like Bless and the like (which only affect allies).

I'll post the reason why this diskussion came up after I get some other opinions on this.

BTW: The rules column at wizards.com never mentioned the condition that the one causing an AoO must be an enemy...

 

[Jdvn1]

But once you turn against an ally you would no longer be affected by such spells like Bless and the like (which only affect allies).

Well, but that wouldn't affect already-existant effects. But the Bless wouldn't work on you. I think the terms "ally" and "enemy" are subjective to the caster. If the caster considers some creatures allies, the spell effects them. If the caster is dubious about an NPC, he can make the spell not affect him.

BTW: The rules column at wizards.com never mentioned the condition that the one causing an AoO must be an enemy...

Well, we're cooler than the rules column at wizards.com.

 

[Fangor the Fierce]

We ran into this last gaming session. One of our allies was charmed into handing over the +5 Mighty Composite Flaming Longbow to the enemy who was flying around, wanting to take pot shots at us all day. Well, the fighter was under the FLY spell, Enlarged, and widling a Spiked Chain. So the DM allowed the fighter to choose a disarm against the ally under the charm spell, should he try and hand over the bow on the fighters next turn.

It never came into effect, as the ally under the charm spell actually had the Mirror Image up, so the other mage cast Silent Image, causing one of the random images to appear to hand over the bow, but then pull it back, out of the reach of the enemy.

By the rules, this caused the enemy to make a move action to retreive the bow, and the fighter got an AoO on her. Then, the image disappeared. So she had to select one of the 7 images that were now reaching out, handing her a bow. Needless to say, she failed, and another AoO happened. Combat Reflexes rocks!

So I see no problem with allowing AoO's against allies. It all depends on the situation. Another time, the DM ruled for a Spot check, to see that our ally was trying to sneak up and attack someone we did not want them to attack. it's purely up to the DM IMHO.

 

[irdeggman]

In order to gain an AoO the character must be threatening the target. If this target is his own ally then the target must be considered threatened. This is not normally the case. If it was then most allies would be generating AoO all the time since they ignore their ally. Also they wouldn't be able to do a lot of actions that only allies can do - move throw occupied squares or the effects of class abilities and spells on "allies".

IMO at the start of the round (or at least at his turn in the initiative order) the character must state whether he is or is not threatening his "allies". Declaring it makes it so the character's stance reflects what his intentions are and thus his former "allies" can pick up on the change of heart. Basically a character knows when another is threatening him - that is one of the reasons that initiative is rolled - there is an intent made clear.

 

[reveal]

We had a player who was dominated by a Vampire. He was forced to attack another party member. After his second failed save, he moved past another party member and provoked. Since he was attacking an ally, I considered him an enemy and gave the player the option of taking it. I don't remember if he did or not.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

In order to gain an AoO the character must be threatening the target. If this target is his own ally then the target must be considered threatened. This is not normally the case. If it was then most allies would be generating AoO all the time since they ignore their ally. Also they wouldn't be able to do a lot of actions that only allies can do - move throw occupied squares or the effects of class abilities and spells on "allies".

Right. Also, the AoO mechanic is an abstraction. The PC isn't just taking a single swipe when appropriate. The PC gains an additional chance of scoring a hit, because he's assumed to be constantly attacking the enemies within range. This trade of blows isn't serious enough to cause an actual hit, except when the defender lets his guard down, i.e. provokes an AoO.

So for you to take an AoO on an ally any time they provoked one, it'd be assumed you were trying to attack them whenever they were in range, which doesn't really mesh with the idea of an "ally."

IMO at the start of the round (or at least at his turn in the initiative order) the character must state whether he is or is not threatening his "allies". Declaring it makes it so the character's stance reflects what his intentions are and thus his former "allies" can pick up on the change of heart. Basically a character knows when another is threatening him - that is one of the reasons that initiative is rolled - there is an intent made clear.

This is exactly how I handle it. On a PC's initiative, he can choose to start treating a particular ally (or all allies) as an enemy instead. At this point, he starts swinging at them whenever they're in range, and takes advantage of any AoOs that may become available.

I also rule, though, that this is not necessarily reciprocal. A charmed fighter might decide to make the cleric his enemy but, on the cleric's turn, the cleric may still decide the fighter is his ally when he casts Magic Circle Against Evil. Each PC decides who they are treating as ally or enemy.

 

[irdeggman]

We ran into this last gaming session. One of our allies was charmed into handing over the +5 Mighty Composite Flaming Longbow to the enemy who was flying around, wanting to take pot shots at us all day. Well, the fighter was under the FLY spell, Enlarged, and widling a Spiked Chain. So the DM allowed the fighter to choose a disarm against the ally under the charm spell, should he try and hand over the bow on the fighters next turn.

So the character had a readied action set. That is not an AoO it is readying an action and doing nothing else because you have used your action by readying.

It never came into effect, as the ally under the charm spell actually had the Mirror Image up, so the other mage cast Silent Image, causing one of the random images to appear to hand over the bow, but then pull it back, out of the reach of the enemy.

By the rules, this caused the enemy to make a move action to retreive the bow, and the fighter got an AoO on her. Then, the image disappeared. So she had to select one of the 7 images that were now reaching out, handing her a bow. Needless to say, she failed, and another AoO happened. Combat Reflexes rocks!

I don't see the fighter taking an AoO he was using his readied action, unless I misread or misunderstood your set up here.

So I see no problem with allowing AoO's against allies. It all depends on the situation. Another time, the DM ruled for a Spot check, to see that our ally was trying to sneak up and attack someone we did not want them to attack. it's purely up to the DM IMHO.

Yup, but in order to take an AoO you must threaten the target ahead of time.