Appalling conduct regarding DriveThru/DRM

[TheAuldGrump]

Sorry Auld, but I'm one of those "crazies" who thinks that boycotting *only* DTRPG will still make it financially feasible to the publishers (since production cost is near-enough to zero), and have decided not to buy print products from these companies for the duration. There's little else that I have the power to do from where I stand.

My own opinion is that if DTRPG fails the publishers will simply decide not to do PDFs at all, rather than remove the DRM. So, I am not buying products through DTRPG, but I am not boycotting the publishers either. (Except maybe Fantasy Flight, I like their stuff a lot, but their pricing for PDFs is so silly as to make me wonder 'why bother?' I almost think that they are trying to make their part of this venture fail.) Most of this comes from the publisher's fear of piracy, a fear that they can find evidence for very easily, I don't think that there are many popular titles from RPGNow that you can't find P2P. So, they will try anything, logical or not, successful or not, to limit the piracy. It is easy enough to understand. Mind you, I don't know this for a fact, I don't use Kazaa or Bit Torrent, or anything else of the kind, heck, I didn't even use Napster... But the people I know who do use them seem to have no difficulty finding what they want.

As for 'cynic' a true cynic realizes that such is human nature, and allows for it. You can indeed be a cheerful cynic. (I know, one of them wears my shoes...)

The Auld Grump

 

[Funksaw]

My own opinion is that if DTRPG fails the publishers will simply decide not to do PDFs at all, rather than remove the DRM. So, I am not buying products through DTRPG, but I am not boycotting the publishers either. (Except maybe Fantasy Flight, I like their stuff a lot, but their pricing for PDFs is so silly as to make me wonder 'why bother?' I almost think that they are trying to make their part of this venture fail.) Most of this comes from the publisher's fear of piracy, a fear that they can find evidence for very easily, I don't think that there are many popular titles from RPGNow that you can't find P2P. So, they will try anything, logical or not, successful or not, to limit the piracy. It is easy enough to understand. Mind you, I don't know this for a fact, I don't use Kazaa or Bit Torrent, or anything else of the kind, heck, I didn't even use Napster... But the people I know who do use them seem to have no difficulty finding what they want.

As for 'cynic' a true cynic realizes that such is human nature, and allows for it. You can indeed be a cheerful cynic. (I know, one of them wears my shoes...)

The Auld Grump

Sorry to hear about the bastard that stole your shoes.

Anyway, as much as I would like OOP stuff to be available as PDF, I have to look at the big picture and, well, I'd have to say that the need to make DRM unacceptable trumps the need to make PDF publishing more prevelant.

One of the things that really gets me about PDF is that it does open the doors to the small-press guys and the first-timers. That's why I support it. But unfortunately, if DRM becomes the standard, it'll be that much harder for entry into the market.

That's why - if it's a choice between no PDFs and DRMed PDFs, I'd rather they get rid of the PDFs and not look back.

Granted, I'd like to have the best of both worlds, but I think the idea that PDFs can be profitable has been established - otherwise WW wouldn't be doing this.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

However, while the profitability of PDFs for the smaller comapnies has been well established by RPGNow.com (Who do a great job), the larger companies for the most part ignore that aspect. There are exceptions - Mongoose Publishing has several products that can only be purchased as PDFs, and others use PDFs to make OOP products available.

And if you ask most of the larger companies why they don't use PDFs you will likely get one of two replies:

1.) It's not worth our time, they don't make enough.

2.) It makes it too easy to pirate. (And again, they can document this, how badly it affects sales is debatable (loudly), but the piracy itself is eay to establish.)

And as long as they fear piracy then they will demand security, likely in the form of DRM, because it is from an established company (Adobe). People don't like being stolen from, even if it doesn't much affect their wallet. They may well gain more sales from PDFs than they lose from piracy, but there is a knee jerk reaction to being robbed.

I do not intend to make any purchases protected with DRM, but I can understand and sympathise with how and why the companies are doing so, as a result I am not boycotting them, nor do I think that boycotting would accomplish more than limiting my purchases to no other effect.

My not purchasing the DRMed PDFs is because of their inconvenience - I want to be able to take it to work to print, I want to be able to take it to Kinkos to print if it has color, and I want to be able to reference it on a CD Rom where ever I take it. Not morality, or ethics, or mores, just the inconvenience.

The Auld Grump

 

[Yair]

However, while the profitability of PDFs for the smaller comapnies has been well established by RPGNow.com (Who do a great job), the larger companies for the most part ignore that aspect. There are exceptions - Mongoose Publishing has several products that can only be purchased as PDFs, and others use PDFs to make OOP products available.

And if you ask most of the larger companies why they don't use PDFs you will likely get one of two replies:

1.) It's not worth our time, they don't make enough.

2.) It makes it too easy to pirate. (And again, they can document this, how badly it affects sales is debatable (loudly), but the piracy itself is eay to establish.)

And as long as they fear piracy then they will demand security, likely in the form of DRM, because it is from an established company (Adobe). People don't like being stolen from, even if it doesn't much affect their wallet. They may well gain more sales from PDFs than they lose from piracy, but there is a knee jerk reaction to being robbed.

I do not intend to make any purchases protected with DRM, but I can understand and sympathise with how and why the companies are doing so, as a result I am not boycotting them, nor do I think that boycotting would accomplish more than limiting my purchases to no other effect.

My not purchasing the DRMed PDFs is because of their inconvenience - I want to be able to take it to work to print, I want to be able to take it to Kinkos to print if it has color, and I want to be able to reference it on a CD Rom where ever I take it. Not morality, or ethics, or mores, just the inconvenience.

The Auld Grump

3) It will offend our retailers (both for cheap prices and for competetion from piracy)

1 I find silly (it takes virtually no effort with modern layouts, and the people at DTRPG will do even that for you), 2 I find wrong, but 3... what can you do I can understand someone over-pricing or downright refusing to sell pdfs due to pressure from retailers. It's their livelihood.

I still won't purchase DRM-protected prodcuts. If I ever wanted a prodcut badly enough I will download one from some P2P network and pay the publisher directly - I get a better product, and they get their due. But I doubt if it will come to that; most probably I'll just not bother getting it.

 

[GMSkarka]

The behaviour of several people in this forum is unacceptable. While the DriveThru/DRM issue is sensitive, personal attacks and insults to other members are not tolerated on these boards.

So how is the new press release language from DriveThru going to be dealt with?

The new version (as posted by GoO) now reads: "DriveThruRPG.com is the first gaming e-Book site for professionals"---how does this not qualify as a personal attack or insult?

 

[Funksaw]

So how is the new press release language from DriveThru going to be dealt with?

The new version (as posted by GoO) now reads: "DriveThruRPG.com is the first gaming e-Book site for professionals"---how does this not qualify as a personal attack or insult?

I think that's covered under the "Giving them enough rope to hang themselves with" proviso.

 

[Dinkeldog]

So how is the new press release language from DriveThru going to be dealt with?

The new version (as posted by GoO) now reads: "DriveThruRPG.com is the first gaming e-Book site for professionals"---how does this not qualify as a personal attack or insult?

I think they're considering that the companies that DTRPG is serving are full-time companies, as opposed to little companies that people are running in their spare time. In that sense, RPGNow is really a site for semi-professionals. If you don't know the difference between professional and semi-professional that might be confusing, I guess.

 

[DaveMage]

Also, doesn't the term "e-Book" have a certain connotation? For example, an "e-Book" may imply DRM restrictions, where simply saying ".pdf" does not.

If true, then DTRPG's claim is valid, no?

 

[GMSkarka]

I think they're considering that the companies that DTRPG is serving are full-time companies, as opposed to little companies that people are running in their spare time. In that sense, RPGNow is really a site for semi-professionals. If you don't know the difference between professional and semi-professional that might be confusing, I guess.

I'm quite aware of the difference, thanks.

You're quite wrong, though. RPGNow does handle several full-timers.

The "eBook" thing might be the loophole here, though....of course, it's still a slimy insinuation, and one that has been carefully crafted to be so. Steve apologized to James for the initial "misunderstanding", and then just re-worded it, so that it says exactly the same thing. A real class act, there.

Of course, if you don't know the difference between class act and smear-tactic that might be confusing, I guess.

 

[Taladas]

I'm quite aware of the difference, thanks.

You're quite wrong, though. RPGNow does handle several full-timers.

The "eBook" thing might be the loophole here, though....of course, it's still a slimy insinuation, and one that has been carefully crafted to be so. Steve apologized to James for the initial "misunderstanding", and then just re-worded it, so that it says exactly the same thing. A real class act, there.

Of course, if you don't know the difference between class act and smear-tactic that might be confusing, I guess.

With all due respect, Mr. Skarka, how does your own post not count as a personal attack? You are calling Steve "a real class act" in a sarcastic manner, suggesting that he is anything but. It seems like a personal attack to me.

Just a suggestion but if in the future you wish to point out posts that you feel break forum rules then you might not want to break those self same forum rules in your posts. Just saying is all.