D&D 5E appendix Next

[Hassassin]

To that end Appendix N(ew) should contain stuff that people actually have found inspirational towards writing the rules or building a campaign.

I agree. And that's why at least Harry Potter and Pokemon should probably be left out. Trying to use them as inspiration for a D&D campaign will not work very well. I'm sure a great DM might work it out, but someone for whom the appendix is meant would just get frustrated. Better mention great titles that D&D can easily emulate.

 

[Yora]

I disagree.

The purpose, from my reading, was simply to cite works that he found inspirational when cobbling together the rules, and a campaign.

To that end Appendix N(ew) should contain stuff that people actually have found inspirational towards writing the rules or building a campaign.

Actually it's a very good thing to remind peiople of stuff they already knew. Telling someone "go watch the lords of the rings movies" mean 10 hours of research work. Telling them "go read the Wheel of Time series" and they'll be researching for the next months.
"Remember that Conan movie?" is a much more practical approach.

 

[Kynn]

I don't have the time right now to come up with a list of specific suggestions, but in general I'd love to see a lot more female authors and books featuring female protagonists.

 

[Oni]

* World of Warcraft
* Harry Potter
* Pokemon
* Buffy the Vampire Slayer
* Naruto
* Skyrim

No really, I'm dead serious. If you're a teenager now and pick up a D&D PHB, these will be popculture references you'll use in your game, among tons of other stuff.

Don't turn D&D into some ivory tower "true fantasy" game that can only create stories from a selected and approved canon that perfectly represents the artists vision. Because that's not what Appendix N is about. It's about what you think is the good stuff. It's about shared popculture knowledge.

In 2012, millions of people will know what you talk about when you say "Expelliarmus", or "For the Horde!". Only a few people will know who August Derleth is without googling.

While I don't know if I agree with all of your particulars I do think that such a list should contain a few entries that the vast majority of the people picking up the book are liable to be familiar with. It makes the game seem more accessible, it gives them an instant in, the ability to immediately think, oh like that. Plus if they recognize and enjoy a few things on the list then I think it makes it much more likely that they will seek out other entries to give them a try, as it sort of makes them good by association. Whereas a big list of things they've never heard of is likely just going to be off-putting and make the game less accessible.

 

[Libramarian]

I disagree.

The purpose, from my reading, was simply to cite works that he found inspirational when cobbling together the rules, and a campaign.

To that end Appendix N(ew) should contain stuff that people actually have found inspirational towards writing the rules or building a campaign.

Well it's both. The primary purpose is to provide the reader with "inspirational and educational reading". That's the title. And then Gygax mentions which works were specifically most influential upon AD&D.

If the Next designers actually felt that their work were strongly influenced by fantasy in other media, I would love to hear about that. But I don't think D&D is really designed that way anymore. They haven't expressed any sort of passion for fantasy in any of the blogs or seminars. It's all brass tacks mechanics.

We don't have a shared basis in fantasy literature so we don't have any polls like "which Rogue class abilities best capture the feel of the Grey Mouser"? It's all...which mechanics capture the feel of your favorite previous edition of D&D?

But with regard to the purpose of inspiration and education, clearly it's better for the list to be unfamiliar than familiar. Familiar sources wouldn't be educational.

But I am not entirely unswayed by the observation that some familiar sources would make the list feel more accessible, to someone who hasn't even heard of Jack Vance or Fritz Leiber. Everybody knows Conan though.

I'd sooner have a list of videogames than films though, actually.

Baldur's Gate series
Icewind Dale series
Neverwinter Nights series
Elder Scrolls series
Demon Souls/Dark Souls
maybe Final Fantasy series, although those present a pretty linear, rail-roady campaign-as-story model

D&D Next really needs a good videogame adaptation.

 

[trancejeremy]

Actually it's a very good thing to remind peiople of stuff they already knew. Telling someone "go watch the lords of the rings movies" mean 10 hours of research work. Telling them "go read the Wheel of Time series" and they'll be researching for the next months.
"Remember that Conan movie?" is a much more practical approach.

But the whole point of the list is to get people to do further research about the genre...

I'd sooner have a list of videogames than films though, actually.

Baldur's Gate series
Icewind Dale series
Neverwinter Nights series
Elder Scrolls series
Demon Souls/Dark Souls
maybe Final Fantasy series, although those present a pretty linear, rail-roady campaign-as-story model

D&D Next really needs a good videogame adaptation.

But isn't it a bit redundant referencing D&D's own video games? Beyond that, I think you want to encourage people playing tabletop RPGs in lieu of video games, not in addition to it...

 

[Libramarian]

But isn't it a bit redundant referencing D&D's own video games? Beyond that, I think you want to encourage people playing tabletop RPGs in lieu of video games, not in addition to it...

i don't think so. It sort of gives you the experience of a whole D&D campaign much more quickly than you can get from pnp experience. And I think the idea that pnp D&D and videogames are in competition is overblown. And even if it weren't I don't think an effective strategy would be to just pretend videogames don't exist.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Steven Brust, the Vlad Taltos series. It's a good antidote to the typical more recent fantasy that needs an editor with a vorpal pen.

Tad Williams, Green Angel Tower series. If you are going to include some of the modern, wordy guys, at least include a series from a guy that can write well.

Jennifer Roberson, stories of Tiger and Del ("sword" series). These are a bit odd while still being interesting and reasonably well written, which makes them a decent bridge from some of the older titles on the list to the more recent titles.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Actually, D&D took the step of referencing video games years ago. 3E's Tome of Battle, in its list of inspiration, mentioned the Soul Calibur games, among others. And that is certainly an interesting (and solid) choice for a game to illustrate the concept of fancy martial combat techniques for D&D. Anyone who has played a fighting game can rather quickly grasp the idea of combat more sophisticated than "I attack".

My personal "appendix N" would certainly include a few videogames. Tactics Ogre, Vagrant Story, Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter, Demon's Souls, Romancing SaGa, SaGa Frontier, Final Fantasy 4, 5, or 6, Dragon Quest 5, 8, or 9, the The Legend of Zelda series, the Ys series, the Suikoden series (except 4), Etrian Odyssey, the Wizardry series for that matter, and so on.

Anime and manga also works as good inspiration. Berserk is good inspiration for anything really dark in tone. Studio Ghibli movies are good for many things lighter in tone. Naruto is quite good for any number of reasons (good portrayal of motivated heroes and combat involving teamwork, for example).

All I would hope is that any future appendix N doesn't stick to the same list that Gygax created years before I was ever born. That would be an incredible waste, since there are so many great sources of fantasy inspiration that have come along since then.

 

[Stormonu]

I'd throw in for Fred Saberhagen's sword series to be added. And The Eragon series (don't care what other say, I like the books).

I also think the appendix should note video games, movies, books and maybe even mention podcasts that talk about gaming (such as Fear the Boot).

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

Ah... I wasn't born back then for five more years.

Get off my lawn!

 

[Savage Wombat]

An issue for discussion:

Steven Brust's Taltos series is an example of a particular subset of fantasy fiction - books that are clearly inspired directly by D&D. Where the writer at some point says (outside of the book) how much of it comes from a D&D game he played in. Or some other RPG.

So, that's either a bad example for a recommended reading list, because it is too self-referential, or it's a brilliant example, because it shows exactly what D&D players think of the fantasy worlds they play in.

Opinions either way?

 

[Crazy Jerome]

So, that's either a bad example for a recommended reading list, because it is too self-referential, or it's a brilliant example, because it shows exactly what D&D players think of the fantasy worlds they play in.

Opinions either way?

Or, it could just be a good example because it is a well-written series, with some interesting characters, notably different from many of its contemporaries in style and tone, that would be somewhat doable in a D&D world (obviously), but is not so tied to it that you can see every single spot the serial numbers were filed off (like much straight D&D fiction).

If you read a book, and it makes you want to run a D&D game, it's a good example. If you read a book, and it makes you want to run some other fantasy RPG, it may or may not be a good example, but probably has some inspiring bits. If you read a book, and it gives you a new way to approach a campaign, or a different setting that you'd like to try, or a different set of foes, etc., then it is probably a good example, though hardly limited to D&D in particular.

 

[steeldragons]

An issue for discussion:

Steven Brust's Taltos series is an example of a particular subset of fantasy fiction - books that are clearly inspired directly by D&D. Where the writer at some point says (outside of the book) how much of it comes from a D&D game he played in. Or some other RPG.

So, that's either a bad example for a recommended reading list, because it is too self-referential, or it's a brilliant example, because it shows exactly what D&D players think of the fantasy worlds they play in.

Opinions either way?

No opinion for what you wanteed, but I only know "Taltos" as a book by Anne Rice.

So, with that brought to mind...I could see the "Mayfair Witch" series being added as inspiration. Though not "fantasy" novels in the D&D sense (ghosts, witches and etc...in a modern world.)

 

[kiltedyaksman]

I don't care what age people are, that someone needs to ask what Appendix N is (however innocently) on a D&D forum speaks to how far awry the game has gone.

That is all.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I don't care what age people are, that someone needs to ask what Appendix N is (however innocently) on a D&D forum speaks to how far awry the game has gone.

That is all.

Huh? Would you mind explaining the logic behind this, because this doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Savage Wombat]

I don't care what age people are, that someone needs to ask what Appendix N is (however innocently) on a D&D forum speaks to how far awry the game has gone.

That is all.

I started playing thirty years ago with the advanced books, and had no idea what you Appendix N people were talking about until I looked it up a few weeks ago.

Now if you said "the recommended reading in the AD&D DMG" or similar I'd have known exactly what you were talking about, as I've read several books specifically because of that list.

Jargon only has meaning with the in-group.

 

[MortalPlague]

There's a few entries of modern fantasy that deserve to be on this list.

The Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch (and the rest of the Gentlemen Bastards Sequence, whenever he finishes books 3-7)

The Blade Itself by Joe Abercrombie (and the rest of First Law Trilogy, plus his other works)

I find the works of L.E. Modesitt Jr. to be quite interesting, in that they take 'good' vs 'evil' and change it to 'order' vs 'chaos'. It changes the world in a subtle, interesting way.

And on a sci-fi note, the always-excellent Charles Stross deserves a mention. Some of his work has significant fantasy crossover (like the Laundry series). Besides, he's the man who invented the Slaad.

 

[Gryph]

Some excellent suggestions here. I would add:

The adventure novels of Walter Scott and Robert Louis Stevenson (Ivanhoe, Treasure Island, The Black Arrow, et al.)

Also the fantasy novels of Guy Gavriel Kay (Fionavar trilogy, Tigana, Song for Arbonne, the Sarantium duology, et al.)

 

[kiltedyaksman]

Huh? Would you mind explaining the logic behind this, because this doesn't make any sense to me.

One could make the argument that Appendix N IS D&D - that and miniature wargaming. Don't take my word for it. Look at the list and read some of the low fantasy literature that provided the inspiration for the game.