Appropriate Level for a Leader of 3,000 Cavalry

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Darklone said:
I suggest you have a look at the KPG if available for the various knowledge (military tactics, military logistics and military strategy) skills...


The use above listed skills is how I add another dimension to my FRPG large scale battles, sure the wonderfully stated out heroic general is fun for a while as he hacks through rows and rows if enemies but there is much more to be had from the experience of a large scale battle than that.

Using these skills actually mandates that the commander of an army/unit be multi-dimensional rather than the biggest, meanest and best sword swinger in the kingdom.

Huzzah, Darkalone....Huzzah!


Oh just in case some are unable to place the initials of the book...Its the Kingdom of Kalamar Players Guide.
 

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S'mon said:
Getting back to the original point of the thread:

For the highest level character in a force of 3000 I'd suggest 11th (regular soldiers, 75% 1st level) to 12th (veteran soldiers, 50% 1st level), for level-distribution reasons suggested above.

My suggestion would be that the leader should be of a level that would best suit the DMs needs for that NPC. And he should have a cadre of officers that are similarly suitable to the DMs needs.
 

S'mon said:
A History of Warfare by John Keegan is another useful source on this topic - see eg:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...51638/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_3_4/026-0748716-7374829

Edit - for Soldiers: A History of Men in Battle, see:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...767/sr=1-18/ref=sr_1_2_18/026-0748716-7374829

This also looks interesting but I haven't read it:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0712665269/ref=pd_rhf_p_2/026-0748716-7374829

Cptg if you have any counter-sources re (absence of) heroic leadership in medieval warfare, let me know and I'll check them out.

The last linked book, "The Mask of Command", is the only one I *have* read, but it is basically a very well-written confirmation of your view here. It provides some great illustrations of the various modes of leadership and how they changed through time.

I particularly liked the use of Alexander as an example of "heroic leadership". It might have been nice if he could sit on some hilltop with a "view" of the action . . . but in reality he had to lead from the front, or beyond. Indeed, he was constantly getting wounded by doing things like climbing a ladder to leap down into a besieged city, when his men held back, to *shame* them into following.

It's been years since I've read the book, but Wellington was the exemplar (one per chapter, as I recall) of a more modern school of leadership. The Iron Duke was certainly no stranger to "the force of powder" but he didn't lead any cavalry charges or have much use for his pistol.
 

Storm Raven said:
My suggestion would be that the leader should be of a level that would best suit the DMs needs for that NPC. And he should have a cadre of officers that are similarly suitable to the DMs needs.

Agreed - I was just suggesting a baseline. I've made plenty of mistakes over my 20 years of GMing (from 22nd level fighters running magic weapon shops - never actually used that IMC, thank God - to 100 'elite' palace guards who were all 1st level) and it's good to have a baseline you know works, that can be deviated from to fit. If you have an idea of the level distribution in your campaign you can avoid building up problems as the game goes on, and create a more organic-feeling world that's robust enough to handle a range of PC levels.

Eg: a world where all the grunt soldiers are 5th level+ (eg Shark's campaign world) will handle high-level play well, but raises questions of how any 1st level characters survive long enough to advance. By contrast a world where all the soldiers are 1st level means that armies are almost useless against high-level characters, who can raze kingdoms with impunity.
 

FR is also a Fantasy world. Having commanders overseeing the battle safe in the basement of their castle may be comfortable for you, but it's not how fantasy stories work.

IMC only cowards lead from the rear.
 

Storm Raven said:
My suggestion would be that the leader should be of a level that would best suit the DMs needs for that NPC. And he should have a cadre of officers that are similarly suitable to the DMs needs.
Hallelujah brother!
 

There is no 'appropriate' level for a commander of 3000 cavalry. But, there are things that may direct your thinking.

What is the force's role and current mission? Is it on extended raiding? Is it mostly garrison? Is it on extended campaign? How far will it be from home bases?

If the force is on extended campaign away from home bases and the commander does not have good logistical/administrative skills, then he'd darn well better have someone in the force who does. It's possible that the nominal commander might command from the front, but if so he's mostly just going to be someone who plans out strategy before the conflict and then rallies people at the front lines rather than makes judgements about the development of the battle and changes of plans. He had better have a core of officers who do hang back, collect information from the wings of the battle, and then have the authority to issue changes in orders to make necessary adjustments.

What is the role of the military in the society and how does one excel in the military?

If the society is meritocratic, then you should expect that the commander is qualified for the job with the necessary skills to manage 3000 horsemen. If officer posts are appointees from the nobility, these skills may be considerably lacking and the commander might not be very good at all. In the meritocratic case, the commander would probably be a fighter with a few expert levels. In the latter case, he's probably all aristocrat.
How bureaucratic is the military? If highly bureaucratic, each unit probably has specialists whose job it is to lead on the battlefield (mostly fighter, some aristocrat, maybe some expert), direct from an overview position adjacent to the battlefield (fighter+expert or aristocrat), handle logistics (mostly expert, some fighter/aristocrat), and all that. I would submit that the overall commander of the force is most likely to be in the overview position. Any other place would dilute his authority (caveats for having a very trusted officer corp in this position) because it would be someone from that overview position who would be issuing battlefield level orders once the fighting starts.
Note that the Romans would be highly bureaucratic with a mix of meritocratic and appointment. As a result, they were darn effective users of their military technology much of the time, especially with respect to routine operations (nobody sets up camp like the Roman army) and when their appointee commanders were actually competent or very lucky (or both in the case of Caesar).
The WWII Wehrmacht would be highly bureaucratic and meritocratic early in the war, more appointment-based later on (as Hitler gutted the competent officer corp that bucked his authority). As a result, they were very effective at times, and very ineffective at other times (such as when you put a staff officer like von Paulus--more of a logistical expert--in charge of the whole 6th Army and waste them at Stalingrad).
Most medieval armies would have been very much along the appointment/ aristocratic rights line, especially the cavalry. They may be effective against similarly organized bodies, but against a bureaucratic/meritocratic organization that is well supplied? They're probably screwed.

Would the commander necessarily be the best fighter?
No, almost certainly not. Even if he does lead from the fore, chances are he's not spending as much time fighting as some of his more elite units. Even at the front he'll be running around probably helping stiffen morale. Of course, you could argue that increases his life expectancy (snipers not being nearly as common in the medieval mode as they are now) and enable him to build up more levels in the long run than his troops (even if his troops advance more quickly).
 

Most officer classes are both aristocratic and meritocratic to varying degress - and an aristocratic officer class can be an effective one. Whether bureaucratic appointment is better than other systems is another question; you can have effective bureaucratic systems and ineffective ones. It'd be a mistake to claim that a meritocratic, bureaucratic system will always defeat an aristocratic, non-bureaucratic one; they both have their strengths.
 

S'mon said:
If you have an idea of the level distribution in your campaign you can avoid building up problems as the game goes on, and create a more organic-feeling world that's robust enough to handle a range of PC levels.

I totally agree with this line of thinking. It's critically important to the versimilitude of a campaign that the DM can answer such questions as: Who's the highest-level character in the world? Who's the toughest fighter in this village? Can any priests at the town temple cast resurrection?

It's extremely useful to have a baseline ballpark estimate for answering these questions. The non-response of "whatever the DM wants them to be" results in a rather cartoonish sequence of ever-higher-level NPCs popping out of nowhere just in time as the PCs achieve higher levels in the campaign.
 

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