Arcane Heirophant vs Ultimate Magus... trying to make a character concept good enough to not suck

[Argyle King]

I have recently been invited to a 3.5 game. The concept I have for my character is that he at some point realized he had the blood of dragons in him. After that realization, he sought to better understand it, and, if possible, foster the inborn power he believes he has.

The two options I've looked at for bringing this idea to life are 1) Sorcerer/Wizard and eventually going into Ultimate Magus, and 2) Druid/Wizard and eventually going into Arcane Heirophant.


Arcane Heirophant
It's a prestige class designed around a druid/arcane caster mix. It is found in Races of The Wild. The biggest downside I see is delayed access to some of the more powerful spells due to needing to multiclass. The biggest upside I see is that you gain a "companion familiar" which is a druid companion which also gains the benefits of an arcane familiar. Wizard/Druid is the quickest path to it; it's also a path which makes it possible to still get 9th level spells in at least one of the classes. (Possibly both if you don't mind using a little cheese and taking Mystic Theurge after Arcane Heirophant runs out of levels.) From what I can tell, it seems like it would be strong in the beginning, weak during the middle levels (due to lagging behind for a bit,) but then potentially very good at high levels. I would also be taking a Draconic Feat which allows my character level to count as sorcerer level for the purpose of qualifying for Draconic Feats.

The fluff idea behind going this route would be that the character sought to better understand the nature of his draconic heritage. The wizard half would be the studious pursuit of understanding his own nature, and the druid half would be time he spends meditating upon his blood and further connecting to his inherent abilities; bringing them forth so he can study them.



Ultimate Magus
I am not looking at my books as I type this, but I believe this PrC is found in Complete Mage. It is a PrC designed around mixing Wizard with a spontaneous arcane caster (Sorcerer, but I've also toyed with the idea of Beguiler for the spontaneous half.) The main upside I see is having spell slots out the wahzoo, and having some pretty neat tricks which become possibly by mixing the two styles of casting. The main downside is (if I've done the math correctly,) I'd never have access to 9th level spells. There are three levels in the PrC in which one of your arcane classes does not advance, and you need to multiclass at least one level to meet the requirements... basically, you end up giving up four levels of one of your classes, so you fall just shy of ever getting 9th level spells in either class. In contrast, the Arcane Heirophant (above) only requires that you burn 3 levels (by multiclassing,) and that still leaves you at the minimum threshold for both wizard and druid to possibly gain 9th level spells.

The fluff idea behind this is basically the same as above, but involves more personal reflection rather than going out into the woods somewhere to meditate and understand nature.



I'm assuming that either option is probably less optimized than just a single-classes character. I'm fine with that. I'm not looking to break the game or go too crazy with optimization. I just want to be able to play the concept I have in mind and not being required to severely gimp myself in the long run to do it. The campaign will be starting at level 2.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The Sorcerer or Battle Sorcerer route at least has the advantage of access to all those Draconic Sorcerer feats.

You might also want to look at the Dragon Shaman class.

http://dndtools.eu/classes/dragon-shaman/
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214007

There is no nifty PrCl to combine the Dragon Shaman with anything like the Theurge type PrCls, and one class is a caster and he other is an aura manifesting warrior class (like the Marshal). But a BttlSorc/DS would have basically perfect stat synergy- Cha and Str being the main ones you'd want.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There is also the possibility of multiclassing a Sorcerer (or single classing) with the Dragonfire Adept. Again, Cha based, but this time its a casting (Invocation-based) class, not a combat class.

http://dndtools.eu/classes/dragonfire-adept/
http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1101061

And while I don't know what would work off the top of my head, the original text in Dragon Magic suggests that it should work with several of the Prestige Classes that work for Warlocks.

 

[Quartz]

Are 9th level spells really a concern? Anyway, a Wiz 5 / Sor 1 / UM10 / Wiz+5 gets 9th level spells (and epic spellcasting because you choose the feats after choosing the class level) at 21st level. One level later than your AH/MT build.

I'd be much more concerned about power level at the mid levels, and because UM only requires a 1 level dip, you should prefer that.

 

[TwoSix]

One thing to keep in mind is that you can reach 9th level spells with Ultimate Magus using the Practiced Spellcaster feat. The text of the Spellcasting description for Ultimate Magus says you grant the spellcasting advance at 1st, 4th, and 7th level to the class with which you have the lowest "caster level". If you enter the Prestige Class as a Wizard 4/Sorcerer (or Beguiler)1, and take Practiced Spellcaster(Sorcerer) as your 3rd level feat, your caster level in Sorcerer is 5, and for Wizard is 4, thus progressing your Wizard spellcasting. At the 4th level of Ultimate Magus, your Wiz and Sorc caster level will be equal, thus allowing you to choose Wizard again. Only at 7th will you be forced to progress Sorcerer casting. That means at level 15, you'll be a Wizard4/Sorcerer1/Ultimate Magus 10, with 9th level sorcerer casting, 13th level wizard casting, and a caster level of 17th for both (thanks to Arcane Power +4 from Ultimate Magus and Practiced Spellcaster).

At a slightly less powerful Op level, a Sorcerer/Dragonfire Adept/Eldritch Theurge could have dragon flavor out the wazoo with some draconic feats.

 

[Argyle King]

The Sorcerer or Battle Sorcerer route at least has the advantage of access to all those Draconic Sorcerer feats.
.

I had looked into that. The Draconic feats are certainly something I want. However, I also found a feat which allows me to use my character level to count as my sorcerer level for the purposes of taking Draconic feats.

Typically, sorcerer is my favorite 3.5 class, but the party already has a dedicated sorcerer, so I wanted to try something different.

There is also the possibility of multiclassing a Sorcerer (or single classing) with the Dragonfire Adept. Again, Cha based, but this time its a casting (Invocation-based) class, not a combat class.

http://dndtools.eu/classes/dragonfire-adept/
http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1101061

And while I don't know what would work off the top of my head, the original text in Dragon Magic suggests that it should work with several of the Prestige Classes that work for Warlocks.

Interesting. I'll keep that in mind.

Are 9th level spells really a concern? Anyway, a Wiz 5 / Sor 1 / UM10 / Wiz+5 gets 9th level spells (and epic spellcasting because you choose the feats after choosing the class level) at 21st level. One level later than your AH/MT build.

I'd be much more concerned about power level at the mid levels, and because UM only requires a 1 level dip, you should prefer that.

I'd like at least one of the classes to have access to 9th level spells. I'm cool with losing out on them on one side if need be, but I'd at least like them to be a possibility.

I'm a bit rusty on 3.5 skills, but I didn't think a level dip would work to get UMD as a class skill at all levels. I thought, when purchasing skills, something was only considered a class skill if the current level you were taking was of a class that had that skill. For example, in my wizard/druid idea, druid skills would only be class skills (and be priced as such) during levels where I chose to level up in druid.

One thing to keep in mind is that you can reach 9th level spells with Ultimate Magus using the Practiced Spellcaster feat. The text of the Spellcasting description for Ultimate Magus says you grant the spellcasting advance at 1st, 4th, and 7th level to the class with which you have the lowest "caster level". If you enter the Prestige Class as a Wizard 4/Sorcerer (or Beguiler)1, and take Practiced Spellcaster(Sorcerer) as your 3rd level feat, your caster level in Sorcerer is 5, and for Wizard is 4, thus progressing your Wizard spellcasting. At the 4th level of Ultimate Magus, your Wiz and Sorc caster level will be equal, thus allowing you to choose Wizard again. Only at 7th will you be forced to progress Sorcerer casting. That means at level 15, you'll be a Wizard4/Sorcerer1/Ultimate Magus 10, with 9th level sorcerer casting, 13th level wizard casting, and a caster level of 17th for both (thanks to Arcane Power +4 from Ultimate Magus and Practiced Spellcaster).

At a slightly less powerful Op level, a Sorcerer/Dragonfire Adept/Eldritch Theurge could have dragon flavor out the wazoo with some draconic feats.

I recently stumbled across the Ultimate Magus trick. I like the concept, but it's a tad bit more cheesy than I'm going for currently.

Also, the stats I rolled (the GM has us roll) lead to me having really good mental stats, but pretty meh physical stats. The d4/d4 hit die combo from sorc/wiz is starting to look a bit rough when I look at my character sheet and realize I have no con bonus.

For what it's worth, we did 4d6 (drop the low) down the line. If I go human (which I probably will because the bonus feat means I can pick up some of the draconic feats I want quicker,) my stats will be (in order) 11,10,10, 16, 17, 15. The GM is allowing me to swap the places of two of them. I believe he said that was the "organic" method taken from the 3.5 DMG.

Also, it's come to my attention that the group lacks a dedicated healer. Currently, the party composition is a straight human fighter who is focused around being a tank and using a tower shield, a catfolk battle sorcerer, a rogue/barbarian (unsure of race,) and a gnome who is currently a shaman/bard. The campaign is starting at level two.

 

[Quartz]

Practiced Spellcaster cannot raise your casting level above your character level, so even with Practiced Spellcaster your 15th level character will be casting at 15th level, not 17th.

Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4. This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain Hit Dice in levels of nonspellcasting classes, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus.

And you can't use PS to affect the level choices in Ultimate Magus as that refers to the class levels, not spellcasting ability.

+1 level of lower-level existing arcane casting class

 

[TwoSix]

Oh boy, a RAW argument! It's been too long.

Practiced Spellcaster cannot raise your casting level above your character level, so even with Practiced Spellcaster your 15th level character will be casting at 15th level, not 17th.

The bonus from Practiced Spellcaster applies whenever it
would be most beneficial to the caster. A 4th-level cleric/4thlevel
fighter with the Healing domain and Practiced Spellcaster
would cast Conjuration (Healing) spells as a 9th-level caster
(base caster level 4th, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, +1 from
the Healing domain). A 4th-level cleric/4th-level rogue with
Practiced Spellcaster who activates a bead of karma (from a
strand of prayer beads) would cast her spells as a 12th-level
caster (base 4, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, +4 from bead of
karma).

And you can't use PS to affect the level choices in Ultimate Magus as that refers to the class levels, not spellcasting ability.

...At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in your arcane spellcasting class with the lowest caster level...

I have a sorcerer 1/wizard 3 with the Practiced
Spellcaster feat affecting his sorcerer spells, which gives
him a sorcerer caster level of 4. He gains a level in ultimate
magnus. Which class counts as the lowest level arcane class
for purposes of the +1 spellcasting bonus?
The ultimate magnus allows you to add a caster level and
spells known to your class with the lowest caster level. In this
example, your wizard caster level would be 3 and your sorcerer
level would be 4, so you would add the bonus to your wizard
class.

 

[Quartz]

Oh boy, a RAW argument! It's been too long.

The examples of exceeding character level you give for caster level involve an item and class feature which allow you to exceed character level anyway. As for the second, I stand corrected, though I would insist on my reading - inserting 'class level' where appropriate - were I the GM.

 

[TwoSix]

I'm a bit rusty on 3.5 skills, but I didn't think a level dip would work to get UMD as a class skill at all levels. I thought, when purchasing skills, something was only considered a class skill if the current level you were taking was of a class that had that skill. For example, in my wizard/druid idea, druid skills would only be class skills (and be priced as such) during levels where I chose to level up in druid.

In 3.5, if the skill is cross-class, 1 skill point only buys a half rank. The benefit of the dip is that your max ranks becomes (level+3), not ((level+3)/2). The Able Learner feat (Races of Destiny, must be human and take at 1st level) lets you treat all your class skills as class skills even if you multiclass to a class that doesn't have them.
Still, UMD is a bit of a luxury if you're already a druid/wizard. You're not missing that many spells!

Also, it's come to my attention that the group lacks a dedicated healer. Currently, the party composition is a straight human fighter who is focused around being a tank and using a tower shield, a catfolk battle sorcerer, a rogue/barbarian (unsure of race,) and a gnome who is currently a shaman/bard. The campaign is starting at level two.

Since your party is a bit on the lower power side, I'd say arcane hierophant is a really good choice. If you absolutely must have 9th level spells by 20th, I'd say either druid 4/wizard 3 or druid 3/wizard 4 to start. If you want to pursue the dragon flavor more, druid 3/sorcerer 4 would also work. For a bit more versatility at lower levels, I'd see if human paragon from Unearthed Arcana is available. Druid3/wizard1/human paragon 3 loses a wizard spell level, but gives you way more hit points and skills.

I'd look at natural bond feat to boost your animal companion, and maybe at the dragon wild shape feat at 12th level to complement the "growing into my draconic power" theme.