Arcane Power- Wizards Stretched Thin

[Cadfan]

Don't be so hard on yourself. I've a strong suspicion that the consensus here will not be the one arrived at in general gameplay. At-will flight will be taken for exactly what it sounds like it is: at-will flight. Going on about how the power lets you fly but doesn't give you a fly speed is going to sound like pretzel logic.

I think people understand the difference between "you can do X" and "you can spend a move action to do X." If you're not spending the move action, you can't do X.

 

[Felon]

I think people understand the difference between "you can do X" and "you can spend a move action to do X." If you're not spending the move action, you can't do X.

Actually, people tend to be pretty lousy at making those kinds of distinctions, and in fact they try to only assimilate as much data as they need to get by.

"You can move an additional square."
"You can move an additional square when you take a move action."

A lot of folks would intuitively connect movement with move actions (for reasons that are self-evident, even they're not always accurate), and thus would think the former sentence functionally identical to the latter.

You think the difference is that obvious? You have that much faith? By all means then, sit back for a few months and watch how many people think Dominant Winds amounts to all-day flying.

I agree with this statement. It is a flight speed as a move action, just like actual flight. I don't see any difference or have a problem with at-will flight at 16th level for a thematically appropriate class.

So, you have an outdoor encounter with a hydra, purple worm, or some other big nasty, and the flying just zips around shooting it until it dies, with no real risk to life or limb. No prolbem with that at all?

 

[Felon]

I've got it today.

I'm very glad to see some wizard powers which vary by 'implement specialisation'. The wizard gets on the same page as everyone else at last! Huzzah!

Enough about wizards and sorcerers! Let's hear about warlocks!

 

[baberg]

Precedence, baby! Compare these powers from PHB...

Angel of Elven Winds, Cleric 22: "grant... a speed of fly 8"
Cloud Chariot, Cleric 22: "...have a speed of fly 8"
Angel Ascent, Angelic Avenger 20: "You gain a speed of fly 6"
Shadow Form, Warlock (Star) 10: "...gain fly 6"
Wings of the Fiend, Warlock (Infernal) 22: "...gain a fly speed equal to your speed..."
Fly, Wizard 16: "You gain a fly speed of..."
Mass Fly, Wizard 22: "All targets gain a fly speed of..."

...to these powers from PHB and the topic of this discussion from Arcane Power:

Radiant Charge, Paladin 13: "You fly a number of squares..."
Cloak of Shadow, Warlock (Infernal) 16: "Fly a number of squares... "
Dominant Winds, Sorcerer 16: "The target can fly a number of squares..."

If WotC wanted to use this power to give you a fly speed, they would have specifically said that it gives you a fly speed as it does in the other half-dozen abilities that let you "fly". And since there are powers in PHB that use the same terminology as Dominant Winds, it's not an oversight. And in case somebody chimes in with "The other powers gave numbers, so this is just a shorthand!" I direct you to Wings of the Fiend, which has no number but specifically states that you get a fly speed.

Dominant Winds does not grant you a fly speed. If you end your turn above ground with Dominant Winds, you will fall to the ground and take fall damage because you do not have a Fly speed.

It is not broken.

 

[Inyssius]

Finally.

Okay, first off: there's only the one new at-will, Eyes of the Vestige, but it is super awesome. The Vestige Pact Warlock can be found here, so I'm not going to go into much more detail on that.

There are new powers for every pact so far, including Dark, at essentially every level. There are some dual-pact powers, which are cool. If you're wondering, here's an example:

• Horrifying Hatching, a level 9 daily power. 1d8+Charisma damage on a hit; on the Effect line, the target takes 10 ongoing poison damage (save ends). Whenever it takes this damage, you can slide the target 1 square. You can spend a minor action to end the ongoing damage and (if Fey) slide the enemy 3 squares, or (if Dark) deal 2d10+Int more poison damage.

There are two vestiges for every level, including the level 1 daily slot. Solis (level 15) is pretty neat:

• His pact boon deafens every enemy within 3 squares of you and makes them all grant CA until your next turn ends.
• His Eyes of the Vestige augment: if the target attacks any of your allies on his next turn, he takes Con-mod fire and thunder damage.

That's pretty tough--and there's an epic-level feat that lets you add any one vestige you have to your primary vestige list, along with Zutwa and King Elidyr. I'm noticing some wonderfully clever utility powers, too:

• Devil's Trade (E-2) lets you automatically succeed on a saving throw, but gives you vulnerable 5 to all damage until your next turn ends;
• Fey Bargain (E-2) gives you a +2 bonus to your next attack roll, but you automatically fail your next save;
• ... and Destiny Inversion (E-10)cuts an attack's damage in half, but the remaining sum is instead dealt to you as ongoing damage.

That all might not be terribly powerful, but it's wicked cool.

 

[yesnomu]

I'm not glad to see that the illusion spells from Dragon just went straight in without any further review - e.g. we still have a spell which is more effective when it misses than when it hits (immobilises, save ends on a hit. immobilises until end of your next turn on a miss)

Unlike some other effects, immobilize is very unlikely to be more useful EONT than save ends. Unless they can make a save before their turn (which is what, hobgoblins and gods?) they're pretty much stuck with 1+ rounds of immobilize.

Daze and stun I could see you wanting to make sure you had it for your next turn, but even then I think multiple potential rounds is better than one guaranteed.

 

[Obryn]

I'm not glad to see that the illusion spells from Dragon just went straight in without any further review - e.g. we still have a spell which is more effective when it misses than when it hits (immobilises, save ends on a hit. immobilises until end of your next turn on a miss)

This seems to be the general precedent for pretty much all powers. Save Ends is considered better, and IMHO for good reason.

Something that lasts until the end of the next turn will last exactly 1 round and affect the target exactly once. No more, no less.

Something that lasts until (save ends) will almost always last 1 round at a minimum, and has a decent chance (with many opportunities to improve this chance) to last even longer.

In most cases, (save ends) is a better power. Not in all cases, mind you, but there are very few monster abilities that either grant them a free save, or let them give allies a free save.

-O

 

[SoulStorm]

So, you have an outdoor encounter with a hydra, purple worm, or some other big nasty, and the flying just zips around shooting it until it dies, with no real risk to life or limb. No prolbem with that at all?

This question has nothing to do with the way the power is written. You seem to be of the opinion that the game isn't robust enough for at-will flight. I disagree, but it doesn't matter. One of us is right and the other is wrong, but the truth has nothing to do with our opinion of at-will flight.

It would be an interesting experiment, however, to see if perception of the power correlates with how people feel about the idea of at-will flight. I don't think this thread is the place for that experiment though.

 

[hong]

Actually, people tend to be pretty lousy at making those kinds of distinctions, and in fact they try to only assimilate as much data as they need to get by.

This may be true for you, but whether it is a generalisation that can be validly applied to the population at large is another matter. The most obvious interpretation of "fly Dex mod squares" is just that: you fly for Dex mod squares. At the end of that, you fall, if you're not on the ground. This is without looking at anything else in the books, whether it's flying rules, falling rules, or whatnot.

"You can move an additional square."
"You can move an additional square when you take a move action."

A lot of folks would intuitively connect movement with move actions (for reasons that are self-evident, even they're not always accurate), and thus would think the former sentence functionally identical to the latter.

Then these folks have not been playing 4E, or at least have not been playing 4E for 16 levels.

"You can move an additional square as a shift"
"You can move an additional square with a move action"
"You can move an additional square when you take a move action"
"You can move an additional square as a free action"
"You can move an additional square as an interrupt"

are all rather different things, and this kind of variety in action cost is commonplace in 4E. The exact action cost is not something that you take for granted if you have any experience at all with the game.

You think the difference is that obvious? You have that much faith? By all means then, sit back for a few months and watch how many people think Dominant Winds amounts to all-day flying.

I don't know why you're so worried about the population at large. Their games don't impact you, and you have no say in how their games work. The nice thing about p&p as opposed to WoW is that everything is instanced, even the ruleset. That said, if you want to talk about the population at large, two results will probably occur:

- Ppl will think Dominant Flying allows flying, and they will adjust their encounters and adventures to match.

- Ppl will think Dominant Flying doesn't allow flying, and will rule it so in their game.

Both of these results can coexist with each other in the general population. There is no need for a single ruling to apply to the entire population, so long as each group is consistent in how they treat it individually.

 

[SoulStorm]

I don't know why you're so worried about the population at large. Their games don't impact you, and you have no say in how their games work. The nice thing about p&p as opposed to WoW is that everything is instanced, even the ruleset. That said, if you want to talk about the population at large, two results will probably occur:

- Ppl will think Dominant Flying allows flying, and they will adjust their encounters and adventures to match.

- Ppl will think Dominant Flying doesn't allow flying, and will rule it so in their game.

Both of these results can coexist with each other in the general population. There is no need for a single ruling to apply to the entire population, so long as each group is consistent in how they treat it individually.

Well said! Still, it will be interesting to see the official response to this question.