-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
archer vs. melee, 3.5 and all that
- Thread starter Eben
- Start date
Zad
First Post
Well EB said it well. I've seen this argument about archery fifty times on the boards. A few months ago I'd had enough, and I did a full blown damage analysis of the melee vs archer at several levels throughout their careers. The damage gap was nowhere near as large as people made it out to be. Archery is powerful, but not broken.
However there are things that contribute to this, being haste, manyshot (as written in ELH) and GMW.
And it's funny how all of them are getting changed in 3.5 Gee...
The problem is not archery, nor the stacking bonus (Power attack can compensate for this nicely). But when you add in GMW and haste and so on, the gap got bigger. If you adjust those, it helps everything. Dare I hope it will put the argument to rest? Probably not.
Zad said:
You can't make this comparison based purely on average damage... You have to take the (constantly ingored) fact that archers get to do this damage from a safe distance into account.
As well as the fact that, unless they're in incredibly tight quarters or fighting someone with reach, they're not at any sort of disadvantage when attacked in melee - and that most Fighter-based archers won't shine in melee the way a Barbarian with a greatsword might, but they can easily hold their own.
Dave G
First Post
To me, the idea that Archers are superior because they work from range, that simply doesn't ring true... There are many ways to neutralize the benefits an archer gets from not being in toe-to-toe combat. Cover, concealment, etc. are used far too little in most games, and the thing is, if archers start firing at characters, they almost always charge them, or take cover. If the opponents don't do that, then you are neglecting an important aspect of the game.
Monday nights game, for example:
We're guarding a caravan... archers (concealed in the woods) start shooting at us before we even know they're there. Then people charge out of the woods to attack the wagons. In order to protect the wagons, we have to focus on the more immediate attacks, meanwhile the archers are still firing. The characters take cover a.s.a.p. while a couple try to move to engage the enemy archers... My archer character is having trouble... he's on horseback firing without a feat for it so he only gets a partial action... There's cover for the enemy archers and he simply doesn't know where they are.
Now I'm the kind of player who is willing to accept the AoO for firing in close combat, and in general, it works to my advantage. The TWF in our group does more damage, but gets on average less attacks directed against him per round because he doesn't invoke an AoO. When a mage in combat starts directing spells from a distance, she/he automatically becomes a target for attacks... Archers should be treated the same way IMHO.
Monday nights game, for example:
We're guarding a caravan... archers (concealed in the woods) start shooting at us before we even know they're there. Then people charge out of the woods to attack the wagons. In order to protect the wagons, we have to focus on the more immediate attacks, meanwhile the archers are still firing. The characters take cover a.s.a.p. while a couple try to move to engage the enemy archers... My archer character is having trouble... he's on horseback firing without a feat for it so he only gets a partial action... There's cover for the enemy archers and he simply doesn't know where they are.
Now I'm the kind of player who is willing to accept the AoO for firing in close combat, and in general, it works to my advantage. The TWF in our group does more damage, but gets on average less attacks directed against him per round because he doesn't invoke an AoO. When a mage in combat starts directing spells from a distance, she/he automatically becomes a target for attacks... Archers should be treated the same way IMHO.
Zad
First Post
No, actually I didn't ignore it. In fact, when the final analysis came down, I included all the extra factors that weigh in. You say that the safe distance is ignored, but neglect to mention the lack of a threatened area. When you do a balance analysis, you have to factor it all in.
Edit: I found it. (Actually Wizardru did)
Note that this is just for 3.0, not 3.5. A 3.5 analysis is at the end. It also doesn't get into haste and/or manyshot, which really skew things in favor of the archer, and I welcome those changes in 3.5
----------------------------------
Note: this is probably riddled with math errors and there are optimizations that could be done to both characters.
Let's ponder a pair of 28 point buy characters. One archer, one greatsword fighter. Perhaps we can add a two-weapon fighter later. Both are human fighters and will remain so during their career so as to facilitate a fair comparison. I will equip them very modestly as they level up, giving only the most basic weapons so as to simplify the comparison. No prestige classes, core rules basically. These characters are not optimized or tweaked
so they could be better, but at least they're on equal footing.
Starting stats:
GreatswordGuy
STR 18, DEX 10, CON 16
ArcherGuy
STR 14, DEX 18, CON 14
(Int, wis, and cha will be 8 for both)
At level 5
=============================================
GreatswordGuy
STR 19, DEX 10, CON 16. Avg hp = 27.5+15=42.5
Feats: Power attack, weapon focus (greatsword), weapon spec (greatsword), Cleave, Combat reflexes, Great Cleave
With his +1 greatsword he is +11 to hit and 2d6+7 (avg. 14) damage. If he feels he has an easy hit, he can go as far as +6 to hit, and 2d6+12 (avg. 19) damage via power attack.
ArcherGuy
STR 14, DEX 19, CON 14 Avg hp = 27.5+10=37.5
Feats: Weapon Focus (composite longbow) Point blank shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon specialization (composite longbow), Improved initiative
With his +1 mighty composite longbow (considerably more expensive than the greatsword) the archer is +11 to hit and 1d8+2 (avg 6.5) damage. Inside 30 feet the archer is +12 to hit, and 1d8+5 damage (avg 9.5). With a rapid shot inside 30 feet (the archer's best move) he is +10/+10 at 1d8+6 dmg (avg 10.5
ea, 21 combined).
Analysis: Looks about even to me. If we assign "favorable" conditions to each character, the swordsman will do 19 points on a power-attacked hit, and may cleave. The archer will do 21 points. The swordsman can also respond to attacks of opportuntity that the archer cannot, and the swordsman can move and do his damage, so they are slight points in favor of the swordsman.
At level 10
=============================================
GreatswordGuy
STR 20, DEX 10, CON 16. Avg hp = 55+30=85
Feats: Power attack, weapon focus (greatsword), weapon spec (greatsword), Cleave, Combat reflexes, Great cleave, Improved critical, Improved initative, Dodge, Iron will, Great Fortitude <Note that the important feats are all taken at this point and it matters less now. I'd love expertise for this guy but he's too dumb.>
With his +2 greatsword he is +18/+13 to hit and 2d6+9 (avg. 16, total 32) damage. If he feels he has an easy hit, he can go as far as +8/+3 to hit, and 2d6+19 (avg. 26, total 52) damage via power attack. A bit extreme for most cases tho.
ArcherGuy
STR 14, DEX 20, CON 14 Avg hp = 55+20=75
Feats: Weapon Focus (composite longbow) Point blank shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon specialization (composite longbow), Improved initiative, sharp shooter, etc. <Note that the important feats are all taken at this point and it matters less now>
With his +2 mighty composite longbow and +2 arrows (assuming the availability of greater magic weapon, which is reasonable at this level) the archer is +20/+15 to hit and 1d8+5 (avg 9.5, total 19) damage. With a rapid shot inside 30 feet (the archer's best move) he is +18/+18/+13 at 1d8+9 dmg (avg 13.5 ea, 40.5 combined).
Analysis: The conclusion becomes harder now but the archer is showing slightly more damage. They are at about the same to hit bonus without power attack. On the other hand with power attack, the swordsman looses accuracy but can pull closer in damage. I'd say at this level, we're starting to see a gap open in damage but there are mitigating factors.
At level 15
=============================================
GreatswordGuy
STR 21, DEX 10, CON 16. Avg hp = 82.5+45=127.5
Feats: Power attack, weapon focus (greatsword), weapon spec (greatsword), Cleave, Combat reflexes, Great cleave, Improved critical, Improved initative, Dodge, Iron will, Great Fortitude <Note that the important feats are all taken at this point and it matters less now. I'd love expertise for this guy but he's too dumb.>
With his +4 greatsword he is +23/+18/+13 to hit and 2d6+11 (avg. 18, total 54) damage. If he feels he has an easy hit, he can go as far as +8/+3/-2 to hit, and 2d6+26 (avg. 33, total 99) damage via power attack. A bit extreme for most cases tho. At this point however he can expect to be using power attack more regularly.
ArcherGuy
STR 14, DEX 21, CON 14 Avg hp = 82.5+30=112.5
Feats: Weapon Focus (composite longbow) Point blank shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon specialization (composite longbow), Improved initiative, sharp shooter, etc. <Note that the important feats are all taken at this point and it matters less now>
With his +4 mighty composite longbow and +5 arrows (assuming the availability of greater magic weapon, which is reasonable at this level) the archer is +28/+23/+18 to hit and 1d8+11 (avg 15.5, total 46.5) damage. With a rapid shot inside 30 feet (the archer's best move) he is +26/+26/+22/+16 at 1d8+14 dmg (avg 18.5 ea, 74 combined).
Analysis: The archer has a more distinct lead now. He can be prety sure of doing his 74, while the swordsman will average 54 at lower accuracy. This is a pretty sizable damage gap. However the swordsman can still take AOO's and threaten hexes however and that's hard to account for in the numbers, and can do a good bit more damage with power attack. Even a 5 point shift means
a 15 point damage change. The swordsman has the flexibility of doing more damage to low AC targets, while the archer's bonus is wasted. The key difference seems to be the stacking of magical bows and arrows.
As an aside you now have the solid edge in hp for the swordsman. They will have about the same AC I believe. The archer either has to give up dex bonus and wear heavy armor, or wear light armor. Either case will make their AC's converge.
Conclusion here is that the archer is doing more damage, but the swordsman is more flexible and a different battlefield presence, akin to the difference between a tank and a piece of artillery. The swordsman will have an edge defensively, which helps compensate for the lower damage. The swordsman also has twice the crit range of the archer, and this will raise his damage accordingly (Swordsman crits on a 17-20 vs archer on a 19-20) but this would be offset slightly by the higher crit multiplier on the bow.
Again these characters are minimally equipped. If a simple item like a stat bonus item is introduced, it allows the archer to simply hit more (assuming dex boosted) whereas the melee fighter gains more damage and hit bonus. A +2 to damage per swing for the swordsman closes the gap significantly. The archer could take a strength item and increase the pull on the bow however so this hardly makes a huge difference. I think this point is key to consider and I may revise the analysis later to include the effect of a +4 strength item at this level.
At level 18
=============================================
GreatswordGuy
STR 22, DEX 10, CON 16. Avg hp = 153
Feats: Power attack, weapon focus (greatsword), weapon spec (greatsword), Cleave, Combat reflexes, Great cleave, Improved critical, Improved initative, Dodge, Iron will, Great Fortitude <Note that the important feats are all taken at this point and it matters less now. I'd love expertise for this guy but he's too dumb.>
With his +5 greatsword he is +30/+25/+20/+15 to hit and 2d6+13 (avg. 20, total 80) damage. If he feels he has an easy hit, he can go as far as +12/+7/+2/-3 to hit, and 2d6+31 (avg. 38, total 152) damage via power attack. Can't hit the broad side of a barn of course. However we know at this point however he can expect to be using power attack more regularly.
ArcherGuy
STR 14, DEX 22, CON 14 Avg hp = 135
Feats: Weapon Focus (composite longbow) Point blank shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon specialization (composite longbow), Improved initiative, sharp shooter, etc. <Note that the important feats are all taken at this point and it matters less now>
With his +5 mighty composite longbow and +5 arrows the archer is
+35/+30/+25/+20 to hit and 1d8+12 (avg 16.5, total 49.5) damage. With a rapid shot inside 30 feet (the archer's best move) he is +33/+33/+28/+23/+18 at 1d8+15 dmg (avg 19.5 ea, 97.5 combined).
Analysis: The damage gap actually shrunk, since you can't get better than a +5 arrow which the archer had earlier. Also if you throw the strength item into the mix, I think the gap is even smaller.
There's a lot more work that could be done here, but overall I don't think there's the problem that some people are convinced there is.
--------------------------------------
Now let's add in what we know about 3.5:
DR: Hard to say what effect these changes will have since we don't know the exact nature. A special purpose weapon will be easier to come by than special arrows of course. Also since the archer does lower damage per shot, the DR will hurt the archer more without the means to bypass it. But it's all guesswork.
Haste: this can go a lot of ways depending what kind of tricks you use. Too varied to fold in here.
GMW: A big change. By slowing down the rate at which the arrows go up in their bonus, you tune down the archer's damage. I generally assumed that the swordsman and archer had the same level of GMW available to them (cast by a spellcaster of their level) but since the arrow/bow bonus stacks, this would be more of a cut for the archer. Also in practice, most fighters have magic weapons but archers use a lot of GMW for arrows.
So the 3.5 changes, what little we know, would seem to close the gap further.
Last edited:
Kerrick
First Post
For the record, I don't consider their work "crap" (although some of it does come into question...) I used the word "crap" as a general synonym for "stuff". And yes, I had heard that the didn't playtest 10th+ levels. Which would explain how the ELH was as badly done as it was...
While I'm here, I;d like to chime in the discussion at hand, just so this post remains OT. Everyone bitches that archers are overpowered - they're only overpowered in their element - when they're firing arrows from a concealed and/or superior position (above the party, e.g.). Just the same as melee fighters are powerful in melee, but they suck at range. Everyone has their strengths, and everyone has their weaknesses, so quit complaining and get back to playing.
Endur
First Post
Analysis rebutted
I modified the analysis above for accuracy and what I thought was more likely to be typical items. I didn't go through all the high levels, but I compared at 5th level and 10th level. At those two levels, it was obvious that the Archer is more powerful than the fighter UNLESS the fighter is in a situation where he can use Cleave. Extra attacks from cleave might make up for the archer's rapid shot ability.
Also, remember that anytime the swordsman wants to attack, he has to get within 5' of the enemy. The archer gets his max damage at 30', and doesn't even have to be that close if he doesn't want to be.
Enjoy____________________________________________
Let's ponder a pair of 28 point buy characters. One archer, one greatsword fighter. Perhaps we can add a two-weapon fighter later. Both are human fighters and will remain so during their career so as to facilitate a fair comparison. I will equip them very modestly as they level up, giving only the most basic weapons so as to simplify the comparison. No prestige classes, core rules basically. These characters are not optimized or tweaked
so they could be better, but at least they're on equal footing.
Starting stats:
GreatswordGuy
STR 18, DEX 10, CON 16
ArcherGuy
STR 14, DEX 18, CON 14
(Int, wis, and cha will be 8 for both)
At level 5
=============================================
Magic items: each has a +1 item
Buff Spells: each has a Bulls Strength +4
GreatswordGuy
STR 19+4 =23, DEX 10, CON 16. Avg hp = 27.5+15=42.5
Feats: Power attack, weapon focus (greatsword), weapon spec (greatsword), Cleave, Combat reflexes, Improved Initiative
With his +1 greatsword he is +13 to hit and 2d6+10 (avg. 17) damage. If he feels he has an easy hit, he could go to +10 to hit, and 2d6+13 (avg. 20) damage via power attack. (+8 to hit, avg 22 would be the max for PA).
ArcherGuy
STR 14 +4 = 18, DEX 19, CON 14 Avg hp = 27.5+10=37.5
Feats: Weapon Focus (composite longbow) Point blank shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon specialization (composite longbow), Improved initiative
With his +1 mighty composite longbow (400+gp more expensive than the greatsword) the archer is +11 to hit and 1d8+5 (avg 9.5) damage. Inside 30 feet the archer is +12 to hit, and 1d8+8 damage (avg 12.5). With a rapid shot inside 30 feet (the archer's best move) he is +10/+10 at 1d8+8 dmg (avg 12.5
ea, 25 combined).
Analysis: If the Fighter is in a situation where he can cleave, then he has an advantage. Otherwise, the archer’s Rapid Shot means the archer will do 25 points of damage with a +10 to hit while the fighter can only do 20 points of damage with a +10 to hit.
At level 10
=============================================
Magic Items: Both characters have +3 equivalent items (+1 holy) with +3 GMW
Archer also has GMW arrows +3
Archer has bracers of archery
Fighter has a keen scabbard (or spell placed on weapon)
Buff spells: Bulls Strength +4, Cats Grace +4 on both
GreatswordGuy
STR 20 +4 = 24, DEX 10 +4 =14, CON 16. Avg hp = 55+30=85
Feats: Power attack, weapon focus (greatsword), weapon spec (greatsword), Cleave, Combat reflexes, Great cleave, Improved critical, Improved initative, Dodge, Iron will, Great Fortitude
With his +3 Holy greatsword he is +21/+16 to hit and 4d6+15 (avg. 29, total 58) damage. If he feels he has an easy hit, he can go as far as +11/+6 to hit, and 4d6+25 (avg. 39, total 78) damage via power attack. Crit on a 15-20/x2.
ArcherGuy
STR 14 +4 =18, DEX 20 +4 = 24, CON 14 Avg hp = 55+20=75
Feats: Weapon Focus (composite longbow) Point blank shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon specialization (composite longbow), Improved initiative, sharp shooter, Improved Critical composite longbow, Far Shot, Iron Will, Great Fortitude.
With rapid shot, his +3 holy mighty composite longbow and +3 arrows, the archer is +24/+24/+19 to hit and 1d8+2d6+10 (avg 21.5, total 64.5) damage. Inside 30 feet (the archer's best move) he is +25/+25/+20 at 1d8+2d6+14 dmg (avg 25.5 ea, 76.5 combined). The archer’s critical threat range is 19-20/x3
Analysis: The archer is dramatically more powerful at this level. The only way the swordsman can compete with the archer’s 76.5 points of damage per round (within 30’) is for the swordsman to power attack (which greatly reduces accuracy and the chances of the swordsman getting a critical hit).
The swordsmans' greater crit range is nice, but the archer's +4 to hit and +18.5 to average damage each round is far more important than the swordsman's critical range.
I modified the analysis above for accuracy and what I thought was more likely to be typical items. I didn't go through all the high levels, but I compared at 5th level and 10th level. At those two levels, it was obvious that the Archer is more powerful than the fighter UNLESS the fighter is in a situation where he can use Cleave. Extra attacks from cleave might make up for the archer's rapid shot ability.
Also, remember that anytime the swordsman wants to attack, he has to get within 5' of the enemy. The archer gets his max damage at 30', and doesn't even have to be that close if he doesn't want to be.
Enjoy____________________________________________
Let's ponder a pair of 28 point buy characters. One archer, one greatsword fighter. Perhaps we can add a two-weapon fighter later. Both are human fighters and will remain so during their career so as to facilitate a fair comparison. I will equip them very modestly as they level up, giving only the most basic weapons so as to simplify the comparison. No prestige classes, core rules basically. These characters are not optimized or tweaked
so they could be better, but at least they're on equal footing.
Starting stats:
GreatswordGuy
STR 18, DEX 10, CON 16
ArcherGuy
STR 14, DEX 18, CON 14
(Int, wis, and cha will be 8 for both)
At level 5
=============================================
Magic items: each has a +1 item
Buff Spells: each has a Bulls Strength +4
GreatswordGuy
STR 19+4 =23, DEX 10, CON 16. Avg hp = 27.5+15=42.5
Feats: Power attack, weapon focus (greatsword), weapon spec (greatsword), Cleave, Combat reflexes, Improved Initiative
With his +1 greatsword he is +13 to hit and 2d6+10 (avg. 17) damage. If he feels he has an easy hit, he could go to +10 to hit, and 2d6+13 (avg. 20) damage via power attack. (+8 to hit, avg 22 would be the max for PA).
ArcherGuy
STR 14 +4 = 18, DEX 19, CON 14 Avg hp = 27.5+10=37.5
Feats: Weapon Focus (composite longbow) Point blank shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon specialization (composite longbow), Improved initiative
With his +1 mighty composite longbow (400+gp more expensive than the greatsword) the archer is +11 to hit and 1d8+5 (avg 9.5) damage. Inside 30 feet the archer is +12 to hit, and 1d8+8 damage (avg 12.5). With a rapid shot inside 30 feet (the archer's best move) he is +10/+10 at 1d8+8 dmg (avg 12.5
ea, 25 combined).
Analysis: If the Fighter is in a situation where he can cleave, then he has an advantage. Otherwise, the archer’s Rapid Shot means the archer will do 25 points of damage with a +10 to hit while the fighter can only do 20 points of damage with a +10 to hit.
At level 10
=============================================
Magic Items: Both characters have +3 equivalent items (+1 holy) with +3 GMW
Archer also has GMW arrows +3
Archer has bracers of archery
Fighter has a keen scabbard (or spell placed on weapon)
Buff spells: Bulls Strength +4, Cats Grace +4 on both
GreatswordGuy
STR 20 +4 = 24, DEX 10 +4 =14, CON 16. Avg hp = 55+30=85
Feats: Power attack, weapon focus (greatsword), weapon spec (greatsword), Cleave, Combat reflexes, Great cleave, Improved critical, Improved initative, Dodge, Iron will, Great Fortitude
With his +3 Holy greatsword he is +21/+16 to hit and 4d6+15 (avg. 29, total 58) damage. If he feels he has an easy hit, he can go as far as +11/+6 to hit, and 4d6+25 (avg. 39, total 78) damage via power attack. Crit on a 15-20/x2.
ArcherGuy
STR 14 +4 =18, DEX 20 +4 = 24, CON 14 Avg hp = 55+20=75
Feats: Weapon Focus (composite longbow) Point blank shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon specialization (composite longbow), Improved initiative, sharp shooter, Improved Critical composite longbow, Far Shot, Iron Will, Great Fortitude.
With rapid shot, his +3 holy mighty composite longbow and +3 arrows, the archer is +24/+24/+19 to hit and 1d8+2d6+10 (avg 21.5, total 64.5) damage. Inside 30 feet (the archer's best move) he is +25/+25/+20 at 1d8+2d6+14 dmg (avg 25.5 ea, 76.5 combined). The archer’s critical threat range is 19-20/x3
Analysis: The archer is dramatically more powerful at this level. The only way the swordsman can compete with the archer’s 76.5 points of damage per round (within 30’) is for the swordsman to power attack (which greatly reduces accuracy and the chances of the swordsman getting a critical hit).
The swordsmans' greater crit range is nice, but the archer's +4 to hit and +18.5 to average damage each round is far more important than the swordsman's critical range.
Mortaneus
First Post
A note regarding your math:
At 10th level, GMW is +3. Let's assume that both the archer and the greatsword monkey have access to it.
That means that, with GMW, the archer is getting +6/+6 (cast on both bow and arrows), while the swordwielder has +3/+3.
Also, an archer of that level should have bracers of archery (every single archer I've ever seen of 6+ level has), so that's another +2/+1 within 30ft. Plus point blank shot, that means another +1/+1 within 30ft.
Let's toss some stat-boosting items on there too, for good measure:
Greatsworder:
BAB 10 + 1 (WF) + 3 (Wep) + 7 (24 Str) = +21/+16
Dam 2d6 + 3 (wep) + 2 (WS) + 10 (Str) = 2d6+15 = 22 avg = 44 per round max
Archer:
BAB 10 + 1 (WF) + 3 (Wep) + 3 (Arrow) + 6 (22 Dex) + 2 (bracers) + 1 (pbs) = +26/+21 or +24/+24/+19
Dam 1d8 + 3 (wep) + 3 (arrow) + 2 (WS) + 4 (18 Str from belt) + 1 (bracers) + 1 (pbs) = 1d8 + 14 = 18.5 avg = 55.5 per round max
The big problem with archers is that they have three sources of bonuses that the melee monster can't touch, and another that takes MUCH more effort.
Point Blank Shot, Bracers of Archery, and Arrow bonuses have no equivalent for melee fighters.
To mimic rapid shot requires THREE feats to properly mimic. Ambidex, TWF, and exotic wep prof in a double weapon. You need the exotic weapon to get at least 1d8 with both hands, without suffering an additional -2.
Archers are monsters when properly created. If you go with high-powered stat lines, things just get worse. The only real mitigating factor is that melee bruisers can use power attack, but even then, their attack bonuses are going to be 3+ points behind the archer. If you use the peerless archer from the FR Silver Marches book (ranged power attack), then it just gets silly.
At 10th level, GMW is +3. Let's assume that both the archer and the greatsword monkey have access to it.
That means that, with GMW, the archer is getting +6/+6 (cast on both bow and arrows), while the swordwielder has +3/+3.
Also, an archer of that level should have bracers of archery (every single archer I've ever seen of 6+ level has), so that's another +2/+1 within 30ft. Plus point blank shot, that means another +1/+1 within 30ft.
Let's toss some stat-boosting items on there too, for good measure:
Greatsworder:
BAB 10 + 1 (WF) + 3 (Wep) + 7 (24 Str) = +21/+16
Dam 2d6 + 3 (wep) + 2 (WS) + 10 (Str) = 2d6+15 = 22 avg = 44 per round max
Archer:
BAB 10 + 1 (WF) + 3 (Wep) + 3 (Arrow) + 6 (22 Dex) + 2 (bracers) + 1 (pbs) = +26/+21 or +24/+24/+19
Dam 1d8 + 3 (wep) + 3 (arrow) + 2 (WS) + 4 (18 Str from belt) + 1 (bracers) + 1 (pbs) = 1d8 + 14 = 18.5 avg = 55.5 per round max
The big problem with archers is that they have three sources of bonuses that the melee monster can't touch, and another that takes MUCH more effort.
Point Blank Shot, Bracers of Archery, and Arrow bonuses have no equivalent for melee fighters.
To mimic rapid shot requires THREE feats to properly mimic. Ambidex, TWF, and exotic wep prof in a double weapon. You need the exotic weapon to get at least 1d8 with both hands, without suffering an additional -2.
Archers are monsters when properly created. If you go with high-powered stat lines, things just get worse. The only real mitigating factor is that melee bruisers can use power attack, but even then, their attack bonuses are going to be 3+ points behind the archer. If you use the peerless archer from the FR Silver Marches book (ranged power attack), then it just gets silly.
Mortaneus
First Post
Enkhidu said:
If you get rid of the magical factors, then the primary discrepancy is apparent if you give each three feats to play with.
Archer: Point blank, Precise, Rapid Shot
Melee: Exotic wep prof double sword, ambidex, twf
Basically, in the course of three feats, the archer nix-ed their primary weakness (firing into melee), gained an extra attack, and got an additional +1/+1 to all their shots.
The melee guy got an extra attack.
On the magical side of things, the imbalance lies in two places. Bracers of Archery, and bow/arrow bonuses stacking.
Similar Threads
