archer vs. melee, 3.5 and all that

[Dave G]

Just out of curiousity, has anyone ever done an missle vs. melee comparison where no magic is involved?

It seems to me that it might be easier to discover what really is at fault for the power discrepancies between the two if you get rid of all magical factors.

We have a winnar!!!11!!!

Seriously... if as Mortaneous said, every archer of 6+ levels has bracers of archery, then the problem's not with the character, its with the DM!

Mighty bows shouldn't be common either!

 

[LokiDR]

We have a winnar!!!11!!!

Seriously... if as Mortaneous said, every archer of 6+ levels has bracers of archery, then the problem's not with the character, its with the DM!

Mighty bows shouldn't be common either!

Do you not understand the concept of rules balance? Unless there is a rule that says mighty bows are not common, they are as common as people want them to be. Because they are cheaper than magic and don't require magic, I would have to call them fairly common.

Wizards will make the relatively cheap bracers of archery because they know they can sell them. 5,100 is cheap, compared to the massive list of items. 4th level is low. If there are magic items anywhere, it will be something like this.

Rule balance is not a matter of the DM. We are looking at rules here. The rules do not make these items hard to come by, so they aren't.

 

[Darmyth]

quick note about archers taking that 5' step back. That's your GM's fault.

We had an archer that kept putting himself outta harms way so the GM gave his creatures/npcs' the feat "Pressing attack". I think it's in the sword/fist but don't quote me. I do know that it's in a WotC published book.

anyways, it allows the melee to keep pushing forward as his opponent moves away.

SO!

Round 1
- Archer wins inititive and unloads his arrows... hit/miss it doesn't matter for this. Most archers are within 30' to get that extra hit/dmg.

- Melee moves his 30' to close in on archer and does his 1 swing.

Round 2
- Archer takes 5' step back, raises his bow and gets clobbered by the melee in an Attack of Opportunity since the melee has "pressing attack" feat.

- Now the archer is pretty screwed


Next archer idea...

Battle happens, the archer is 90' away so he can just shoot away at the combatants without worry.

Too bad that a handful of enemies hadn't joined in on the fight and snuck around behind the archer. Poor archer.

 

[Darmyth]

Rule balance is not a matter of the DM. We are looking at rules here. The rules do not make these items hard to come by, so they aren't.

*dies laughing* ummm... ok

Do you not understand the concept of rules balance? Unless there is a rule that says mighty bows are not common, they are as common as people want them to be. Because they are cheaper than magic and don't require magic, I would have to call them fairly common.

- so what you're saying is that you want WotC to hold your hand in all matters and tell you exactly how to play? Wow, i'm glad i'm not in your group.

you say that 5,100 is easy to come by... not with those I game with. If we can get 1,000g we're happy. Magic weapons and items usually are found in game or given to us when the GM feels it's the right time in the story.

SO bracers of archery are *not* common with us... if we can get a magic +1 weapon then we're doing well.

When people are trying to figure these numbers out, they need to break it down to the base w/o magical enhancements.

I saw someone say that the archer can get a GMW casted on both his bow and arrows... I agree but I do not see that happening very much. SO I have a wizard, I am not going to use up 2 of my spells that I have a very limited number of just so you can have fun.

Now, will there be wizards that will want to only be a support character by buffing those around him? Sure, i don't doubt it. But it doesn't happen very much in my group... we're actually suprised when we suddenly get a buff from someone.


Anyways, quit being an Ass and realize that in these type games you need to do some thinking of your own and create house rules.

 

[Derren]

We had an archer that kept putting himself outta harms way so the GM gave his creatures/npcs' the feat "Pressing attack". I think it's in the sword/fist but don't quote me. I do know that it's in a WotC published book.

No, pressing attack is from Dragonstar 20 published by Fantasy Flight Games, so its not really viable for many game groups.

Maybe for YOURS, but as you see your group isn´t the "standart" gaming group. Not even close.

Anyways, quit being an Ass and realize that in these type games you need to do some thinking of your own and create house rules.

Great idea. Take feats from other d20 games, do`n´t give the "problematic" player anything which is useful for him and disallow that mages buff their group members.

Why not give the monster assault blaster (Also from Dragonstar). So the PCs won´t dare to try fight ranged because the enemy is much more powerfull at range.

 

[Dave G]

Do you not understand the concept of rules balance? Unless there is a rule that says mighty bows are not common, they are as common as people want them to be. Because they are cheaper than magic and don't require magic, I would have to call them fairly common.

Wizards will make the relatively cheap bracers of archery because they know they can sell them. 5,100 is cheap, compared to the massive list of items. 4th level is low. If there are magic items anywhere, it will be something like this.

Rule balance is not a matter of the DM. We are looking at rules here. The rules do not make these items hard to come by, so they aren't.

Ummm.... no. Sorry, you're wrong. Balance is entirely about the DM. Just because there exists a way within the rules for a person to create an abuse of the system, doesn't mean the DM has to stand by and allow that to happen. The whole purpose of the DM aside from telling the story is to be the arbiter of the rules.

Just because something is in a book somewhere doesn't mean it should be available to every character. I can in real life find dozens of knives without trouble... finding a masterworked one is another question entirely. Mighty Bows are not going to be common because an exceedingly small percentage of the population is going to be able to draw them, let alone use them correctly.

DMs also control access to magic items.
If a DM doesn't like the stacking of arrows and bows magical enhancements, the easiest way to regulate them is to ensure that the party doesn't get both of them.

You bandy about the term rules balance... my reply is that if you're only looking at rules balance, then you are obviously overlooking something more important... Game balance, and that's where the DM has to do his job.

 

[WizarDru]

To mimic rapid shot requires THREE feats to properly mimic. Ambidex, TWF, and exotic wep prof in a double weapon. You need the exotic weapon to get at least 1d8 with both hands, without suffering an additional -2.

Why would he go into TWF to better himself? That seems like a terrible waste of three feats to reduce his overall damage capacity. One part of the Zad's analysis that isn't recreated here is the fact that while the melee character endangers himself more, he also gains access to a large number of feats to use that the archer doesn't. The archer doesn't threaten AoOs, doesn't flank, and these calculations all assume that the archer is within 30 ft., making him effectively in melee range. High level archers are never going to threaten with a insta-kill 50+ damage hit, but melee will (and have).

Archery IS powerful...but so are many other combinations. The problem, from my viewpoint (having run a game for almost three years with two high-powered archers in it at various points) is with Haste and GMW. I expect you're going to see Rapid Shot toned down to a -3 for two shots and GMW reduced to 1/4 instead of 1/3. Everything I've seen about 3.5 appears to be geared towards extending the number of rounds combat lasts (although not actually slowing the pace, per se). I consider that a Good Thing (tm).

Many-shot...well, that IS broken.

 

[LokiDR]

[personal insult sniped]

you say that 5,100 is easy to come by... not with those I game with. If we can get 1,000g we're happy. Magic weapons and items usually are found in game or given to us when the GM feels it's the right time in the story.

SO bracers of archery are *not* common with us... if we can get a magic +1 weapon then we're doing well.

When people are trying to figure these numbers out, they need to break it down to the base w/o magical enhancements.

I saw someone say that the archer can get a GMW casted on both his bow and arrows... I agree but I do not see that happening very much. SO I have a wizard, I am not going to use up 2 of my spells that I have a very limited number of just so you can have fun.

Now, will there be wizards that will want to only be a support character by buffing those around him? Sure, i don't doubt it. But it doesn't happen very much in my group... we're actually suprised when we suddenly get a buff from someone

What is the wealth guidelines for a 6th level character? What level does a wizard need to be to create this item? Hence commonality, not some off-the-cuf feeling.

By the way, I was asking a question. You were making a personal insult. Please learn the difference.

 

[Darkness]

Anyways, quit being an Ass

Anyway, quit the flaming and play nice.
This goes not only for Darmyth, of course.

Thank you.

 

[LokiDR]

Ummm.... no. Sorry, you're wrong. Balance is entirely about the DM. Just because there exists a way within the rules for a person to create an abuse of the system, doesn't mean the DM has to stand by and allow that to happen. The whole purpose of the DM aside from telling the story is to be the arbiter of the rules.

Just because something is in a book somewhere doesn't mean it should be available to every character. I can in real life find dozens of knives without trouble... finding a masterworked one is another question entirely. Mighty Bows are not going to be common because an exceedingly small percentage of the population is going to be able to draw them, let alone use them correctly.

DMs also control access to magic items.
If a DM doesn't like the stacking of arrows and bows magical enhancements, the easiest way to regulate them is to ensure that the party doesn't get both of them.

You bandy about the term rules balance... my reply is that if you're only looking at rules balance, then you are obviously overlooking something more important... Game balance, and that's where the DM has to do his job.

You missed my point.

If there was an item in the DMG that allowed a person to cast true-strike once per round as a free action and cost 5,000gp, the problem is in the rules. Rule balance.

If your DM starts every encounter at 300' between combatants, the problem is in the game at large. Game balance.

Access to magic items is part of the rules balance, hence wealth guidelines. If you just do not allow people to have items, you are fixing a rules imbalance with a game balance. Any good DM can make up for bad rules. That doesn't make the rules good.

Your argument against access to better quality items is based on availibility. I say that is a matter for the cost of the item and wealth guidelines by level. If you have the money, you should be able to spend it. I don't mean magic-marts, but tracking down a merchant, through series of treasure, commissioned to an NPC, commissioned to a PC or made yourself.