Are Buff Spells Overpowered?

[Elric]

Darkness- well, I'm in a campaign that is just starting up and some people have been playing it by the incorrect 2.5k price. Thus, I've noticed a funny trend as the character creation process has gone by- more and more people are buying it. In fact, even if it cost 6k (we're limited to enchantments worth 4k), everyone would still get it- but it would take another level or two.

The exact merits of Polymorph don't really matter to this thread. What is important is that you can get benefits that help out in a number of different ways, can still cast spells while Polymorphed, and can do it for hours at a time.

 

[hong]

1. YOu cant counterspell dispel magic nor greater dispelling not even with a ring of counterspells. Read the DnD FAQ

Huh?

 

[Simulacrum]

@elric
Polymorph is a good spell. It's one of the truly imaginative and phantastic spells in the whole DnD reportoire.
I can add nothing more to that.
My friend plays a Red Wizard Transmuter. He had to drop 3 Schools of magic to be that. If he didn't have Polymorph he wouldn't be as happy as he is now. Polymorph is simply everything that a Transmuter hopes for. Polymorph other is the only true "attack" spell a Transmuter has in low levels.
Slow and haste are good ones too but just not as good as Polymorph.
Polymorph is not that great for wizards who rely on tactics like casting tons of buff spells. Thats why I explained it's exact rules to show that it in fact HAS drawbacks. Being a combat monster like a dragon is cool, but you will lose all your spells and cant cast any new ones. But its cool to have a natural AC of 24, strength 25 and shredding your opponents with your arm long teeth ..or something like that...it can change your habits ;o)
The psychological factor is the best benefit after all.

@hong

The commment was direct at the threads owner.
He said that storing dispel magic in a ring of counter spells would keep you from getting dispelled by someone else. That is not true.
Dispelling Dispel Magic is an contradiction in it self.
Dispelling a counter spell is even more so. This has been clarified by WotC. It's not possible to counter a counterspell.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Dispelling Dispel Magic is an contradiction in it self.

Reference? Reasoning?

(Edit : And as it happens, we're discussing countering DM, not dispelling it... dispelling an instantaneous spell is indeed meaningless.)

Dispelling a counter spell is even more so. This has been clarified by WotC. It's not possible to counter a counterspell.

Dispel Magic is only a counterspell when it's being used to counterspell: when it is cast as part of a declared ready action to counter another spell in the process of being cast.

A targeted Dispel Magic or an area Dispel Magic is not a counterspell, and therefore can be countered.

If Bob is casting Dispel Magic targeted on Fred, I can find no reason why Fred can't use his own Dispel Magic to counter Bob's casting - in two different ways, in fact.

If Fred succeeds in a Spellcraft check to identify the spell Bob is casting, he can use his own Dispel Magic to automatically counter Bob's spell.

If Fred doesn't identify Bob's spell, he can still use his own Dispel Magic in a counterspell attempt... but in this case, he would need to make a dispel check (using Dispel Magic as a generic counter).

Since the spell in a Ring of Counterspells only triggers when the appropriate spell is cast, it behaves like the first case - a targetted Dispel Magic would be automatically countered, no dispel check required.

If you have a reference as to why any of this is incorrect, I'd be interested to see it... but I couldn't find anything in the FAQ to contradict it.

-Hyp.

 

[Simulacrum]

Yes it's not in the FAQ, damn I cant remember where I read the statement. But it was from one of the official guys who said that Dispel Magic couldnt be countered.
While thinking about it, he could have meant that Dispel Magic cannot be countered AS counterspell. (that is true of course)
Anyways Mages duelling each other with countering dispel attempts are no threat anymore ;o) That means that will achieve it's goal. In the second you dont bother about dispelling dispels you are lost anyways. This gives henchmen and followers much more validation and meaning in context with this insane magic crazy game.
It's funny when you have 2 spellcaster waiting and readying actions for over half the battle just to make sure nothing gets through their defence....thats much more fun as when spellcasters dominate each battle until the fighters and rouges get bored to death by each encounter...only running for their lives while hasted blinking spellcasters hurl out spells like crazy and destroy whole armies in their path.
-
Thats why every successful army should employ at least a few mid level casters to support them with counterspells and a cleric who finds out how many enemy spellcasters will arrive with divination. (after that he can counterspell too!)

 

[gfunk]

Elric,

I have to agree with you to a certain extent. In the campaign where I was DM, we played Greyhawk setting and all splatbooks were fair game (though they had to be approved by me of course). The key issue here is this:

I'm a working professional and I have neither the time nor inclination to prepare adventures from scratch for my players. Therefore I exclusively used published modules, in which NPCs and monsters are rarely min-maxed and never to the extend of the PCs.

In an old campaign, we used all the splatbooks and the FRCS (what were we thinking!). The campaign soon became unplayable b/c of all the freaking buff spells. I mean how on God's green earth do you stop a high-level sorcerer with Ghostform, Improved Invisibility, Non-Detection, Polymorph Self, and Blindsight going?

The bottom line is, if you want to include everything you'll have to make a concerted effort as DM to extensively modify existing modules to challenge your PCs. Unfortunately, this will take a lot of book keeping and the actual combats will become tedious as all of you NPCs become polymorphed into Hags and Giants. I'm pretty good at math but it's a frickin' nightmare to keep track of so many buffs on the monsters and it really slows down game time.

In our campaign the players and myself agreed to house rule a few things which have made gameplay more challenging and fun for all. The following spells/items are banned:

All Polymorph spells
Ghostform
Simulacrum
Dust of Disappearance
The *entire* rules contents of the FRCS and MaoF

The following have been modified:

Ability buff spells (BS, Endurance, CG, etc.) can only be metamagicked once

 

[Roland Delacroix]

Re: Buffs

As far as 2000 gold for a +10 item, I generally only allow the ones in the dmg or another wotc book to be used. One player tried to get a +10 competence to "use magic device" for his WIZARD (he had taken cosmpolitan). Feh to him, I upped the price by a factor of 10, seeing as it is an exclusive skill

It is an exclusive skill. PHB pg. 59, on the chart is has an x, which states "You can't buy this skill because it is exclusive to another class". If you read Cosmopolitan you will notice that it states "Choose one non-exclusive skill...". PC's can't use Cosmopolitan to gain UMD, Scry, Read Lips, Decipher Script, Animal Empathy, or any other Exclusive skill.

The boots have been erratted to 6,000 gp. Not that big a deal, Expeditious Retreat scrolls are pretty cheap.

As far as buffs, yep, thats why you drop a Dispel Magic on anyone bearing a Holy Symbol using a Simple Weapon. One spell and you've usually erased 1/4 or more of his spells for the day

The way it's worked out for me so far, if the PC's take the time to buff the NPC's use the same time to Buff up. A much more spectacular, but still balanced, fight ensues.

In summary: Eric, yer full of crap and need to try playing for 20 levels or so before armchair DMing here.

 

[Simulacrum]

Elric,

In an old campaign, we used all the splatbooks and the FRCS (what were we thinking!). The campaign soon became unplayable b/c of all the freaking buff spells. I mean how on God's green earth do you stop a high-level sorcerer with Ghostform, Improved Invisibility, Non-Detection, Polymorph Self, and Blindsight going?

Funny, you should think about what you're writing.
The sorcerer is most limited on his spells ,that means he must be quite some high level bastard to throw so many spells on.
This means that the party or the NPC's fighting him should be at least his level, or quite recourceful, or the DM isn't in control of things and has to learn some tricks.
I just recommend everyone to redefine their teamwork, look at their possibilities to even the score, the DM should do the same.
1. Powerful groups allways have ways to encapsulate themselves in social surroundings. incl. military and political force.
2. Divination and scrying possibilities should be given out to the players, or to the NPC's to make themselves sure of what they are likely to expect. Everyone leaves trails, if you get that powerful someone will know you.
Spellcasters should specialize in Counterspelling and Dispel Magic.
Forget throwing spells when you can stop your opponent throwing spells. Weapons like spellblades or blades of warning make it impossible for enemy's to surprise you or defeat you blatantly.
Sorcerers are in general the worst choice for a long lasting enemy. They suffer from havon the WORST saves nearly any spell that demands a fortitude saving throw kills them instantly.
Even polymorphed they have to choose to attack or to cast spells.
When they cast spells they get counterspelled to hell because their reportoire of spells is laughable.
A cleric of equal level will defeat him nearly singlehandedly.
Hell, throw out Destruction and or Hold person and the guy can push the daisys. (Throw up true seeing first!)
Thats it.
Equaly when PC's try those tactics, let them feel that the NPC's are recourceful and cant be just overbuffed!
Again, Counterspelling and help from organized backup makes it virtually impossible to a PC's to come in like a ghost and kill them all. Never let the players think they can just do what they want, if they think so surprise them with things they didn't come up with.
A thick political intrigue, tons of spy's, huge armies and allies should make the players think twice. Give NPC's spellcasters lots of mid level underlings who are specialized in countering magic.
If the organization is powerful they can Summon a outsider or demon who can see ethereal and invisible creatures and recieves souls as payment...(hey they never sleep, have unlimited time why shouldnt a red abishay help out some likeminded villian?)
U see everything is in good balance.
Also: rings of counterspells are great, rings of blinking, scrolls of greater dispelling even for rouges make up for interesting encounters without a side wining through magic only!!

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Buffs are very good but they don't beat focussed attack spells hands down.

The spells you mentioned can change the tide of a battle but if they're the only spells that change the tide of a battle, it's only because they're the only spells you use.

Haste can change the tide of a battle. Slow can be even more effective (particularly since it counters mass haste with no saving throw so if you're up against a horde of hasted foes, it's great). For that matter, comparing the power of a haste spell to fireball in the hands of an 18-22 charisma sorceror with greater spell focus: evocation (DC 21-23 reflex save) doesn't yield a definite answer either. If you're facing multiple opponents, the fireball is probably far more effective. Spellcasters can clean up their foes with save or die spells too. Since you mentioned Tenser's Transformation (with a bunch of other spells tossed into the mix), why not compare it to disintegrate cast by a 24 int (pretty typical by 12th level--starting at 17 (which is possible for a grey elf with the iconic spread of stats) with a headband of intellect +4) wizard with greater spell focus: Transmutation. DC 27 Fort save or die. And the wizard in question has only used up a single sixth level spell rather than a first (mage armor), second (endurance), third (haste), fourth (polymorph self), fifth (persistent Shield), and sixth (Tenser's transformation--which has a 300gp material component) level spell.

For that matter, the persistent shield spell could have been an empowered fireball (average 52 pts. damage) with a DC that's most likely 23* (22 int, greater spell focus: evoc).

The polymorph self could have been a polymorph other (Fort DC 25 or turned into a harmless bunny rabbit).

Or it could have been an enervation. For that matter the disintegrate could have been a twinned or repeating enervation. Villains with -2d4 to every roll they make are suddenly much less impressive.

The haste could have been a fireball but would most likely still be a haste (it's useful for a blaster mage too) enabling the wizard to drop the disintegrate this round and follow it up with the polymorph other and the empowered fireball next round.

So, in short, although it's possible to make an effective wizard using buff spells that is by no means the only kind of effective wizard that can be constructed. And it doesn't prove that buff spells are somehow broken. Sure, I had to use feats to make my blaster mage examples really effective, but feats (notably extend spell, persistent spell, and empower spell) were used to make the buffing mage effective as well. If you compare wizards constructed to do different tasks, you need to figure that they have the relevant feats.

*Of course, if you allow FRCS, the wizard can have spellcasting prodigy and bloodline of fire as well to pump this DC up even further.

 

[Simulacrum]

All this is irrelevant to party (NPC's) that can bring up two spellcasters. No matter how fat your Fireball is and how high you manage to wind up you spells DCs a simple counterspell ruins your plans and gives the Fighters a chance to mash them up badly. in high levels you dont even have to roll dice to know what spell is comming at you. the typical spell like Disintigrate can be nicely turned against the caster with a simple +1spellblade.
If you buy yourself some high grade greater dispelling scrolls noone can beat you even with the most exotic spell. Then the *real* tactics decide the match not some lame spell hurling contest by the mages. A ring of counterspells is a must for every mage/cleric. Its really effective...you'll never bother about either buff or damge spells. The best spells IMHO are those that dont deal damage but distract your enemy like illusions or very high level enchantment. Brining a freshly Dominated bad ass monster with you is a good example. polymorphing simple (but trained) dogs in dire wolves another...blablabla.
The choices are much funnier then thinking about how much damage you could deal out.
As DM it's your job to make things EVEN and not let the game become a singular blast'em boredom.
Use just everything in such a fashion that noone can get a real advantage over the other. Make them NPC's clever and recourceful...it why they got so powerful right?
The best thing is to use divination and scrying for everyone. Make spy's and information gatherer the most important people in your game (in real live they are the most important people!)
Knowing yoiur enemy (and the enemy knowing you) makes it very hard for each side to get on top to easily.
Always incorporate third partys that are dangerous too but just wait until some or both opponents weaken up a bit to dominate the PC's and the NPC's in one strike.
That makes the forces even more cautious and remembers them to keep low profiles and to lessen their demands and lust to kill.
This is when it gets roleplayish and the magic hurling gets secondary!
If you dont get it even introduce items that make it very easy to fend off at least 50% of the cast magic.
Really it's easy and satisfying. Just declare how recourceful a long lasting organization is. Make them mysteriously and give them enough contacts and contracts to keep them in a position that demands the players or the NPC's to be careful and show the enemy respect.