Are Buff Spells Overpowered?

[Iku Rex]

1. YOu cant counterspell dispel magic nor greater dispelling not even with a ring of counterspells. Read the DnD FAQ

I have read the FAQ. I must have overlooked this piece of errata. On which page can I find it?

 

[Darkness]

Elric, since your main point seems to be that characters' toys give them powers they couldn't (at least easily) get by themselves, you might find this thread interesting - it's about the relation between magic items and the power of characters.

 

[Elric]

Darkness- thanks for the thread. I didn't write this post with only magic items in mind- in fact, I was more concerned with the abundance of spells in the core rules than magic items. Crafting magic items seems to be more or a problem than the magic items themselves, since DMs can just avoid handing out certain magic items and not have to make any rules changes or major tactical modifications. The combination of buff spells and crafting magic items gets really powerful. A party of characters can also use buff spells even better than any single character- everyone gets +1, Keen, Flaming, Shock weapons and GMW, Boots of S&S, Polymorphed into Hags/Trolls/Giants, stat-enhancers, every sort of AC bonus...

Basilisk- that disintegrate in question will never hit a character with a decent amount of magical protection (touch AC= 28). You need to be hasted and to have True Strike to hit. In addition, Tenser's Transformation is my example of one of the few buff spells strong enough to be cast in combat at high levels. Greater Spell Focus seems to be a weird feat- being restricted to one school of spells is bad, since you can usually only force enemies to make one type of save, but people who are weak against that save are definitely dead. Can Slow really do what you say it can? I thought you still got a save to avoid its effects. If so, Boots of Speed (which I am pretty sure can't ever be negated with Slow) are a more attractive option for everyone.

I don't really think of D&D as a counterspelling game. I remember the last high level fight that featured counter-spelling: we countered a lot of things, but weren't high enough level to counter the Wail of the Banshee that killed my character.

Let me say it again:
The primary reason why you use buff spells is that you can cast them well before combat. The secondary reason is that they provide very good benefits. The fact that those benefits come without taking up any of your precious actions during combat is the most important thing.

Roand-

 

[Darkness]

Darkness- thanks for the thread. I didn't write this post with only magic items in mind- in fact, I was more concerned with the abundance of spells in the core rules than magic items. Crafting magic items seems to be more or a problem than the magic items themselves, since DMs can just avoid handing out certain magic items and not have to make any rules changes or major tactical modifications. The combination of buff spells and crafting magic items gets really powerful. A party of characters can also use buff spells even better than any single character- everyone gets +1, Keen, Flaming, Shock weapons and GMW, Boots of S&S, Polymorphed into Hags/Trolls/Giants, stat-enhancers, every sort of AC bonus...

Yeah, I know that you weren't just speaking about magic items.

See, the thread also nicely illustrates the difference in power between, say, a Ftr9 with minimal equipment and a Wiz9 with minimal equipment (which mostly lies in the spells - i.e., spellcasters are usually not as dependent on magic items).
Which, frankly, amounts to: Wizard casts fly and stoneskin (and/or impr. invis.) and then proceeds to kill the poor Ftr from above.

 

[Vaxalon]

The primary reason why you use buff spells is that you can cast them well before combat. The secondary reason is that they provide very good benefits. The fact that those benefits come without taking up any of your precious actions during combat is the most important thing.

In a DND combat, the defensive side is at the disadvantage, mainly because they don't have their buffs prepared.

That's why any competently designed installation always has a very competent 'reserve' in a protected place, and plenty of ways of detecting intruders. They "power up" before going into combat, and once they're there, they use dispel, slow, and other buff-killers to even up the score.

A slow that eliminates two haste spells gives the caster of the slow one spell up on the victim.

The same with a dispel that eliminates two buffs.

 

[maddman75]

In a DND combat, the defensive side is at the disadvantage, mainly because they don't have their buffs prepared.

This is a misconception. This is only true if you run static campaigns, where the bad guys wait about in their crypts waiting for some meddling heroes to try and kill them.

Where is it written that the bad guys are on the defensive. That doesn't sound very evil to me. Have the bad guys come at the heroes actively. Check out Piratecat's story hour - just recently the normally buffed and tough defenders of daybreak were taken inside their (they thought) secure stronghold. Not only did they not have buffs on, but they were nearly out of spells. Not a single haste in the group (levels 17-19 IIRC).

Take the fight to them, use NPC adventurers. Use all the dirty little tricks that they become so used to against them.

I don't find buffs abusive at all, with the possible exception of Improved Invisibility. Especially with the 8th level OOBI. - four arrows a round with +5d6 sneak on each one, each round. *shudder*

But I deal. COnstructs, undead, true seeing, dispel magic - there are many ways to deal with the threat.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Darkness- thanks for the thread. I didn't write this post with only magic items in mind- in fact, I was more concerned with the abundance of spells in the core rules than magic items. Crafting magic items seems to be more or a problem than the magic items themselves, since DMs can just avoid handing out certain magic items and not have to make any rules changes or major tactical modifications. The combination of buff spells and crafting magic items gets really powerful. A party of characters can also use buff spells even better than any single character- everyone gets +1, Keen, Flaming, Shock weapons and GMW, Boots of S&S, Polymorphed into Hags/Trolls/Giants, stat-enhancers, every sort of AC bonus...

I'm not sure what kind of campaign you run or play in but in most campaigns the limited availability of money, time (this is probably the biggest issue), and, to a lesser degree, experience prevents the kind of magical item creation. Even then, any party which relies on GMW to boost their weapons and Magic Vestment to boost their ACs will quickly find that all of their spells have been used up before they even start the adventure (I once played a 12th level transmuter focussed on buffing his party and ran into this problem). I guess that might change if you DM a party of 8 characters or so and 2/3 of them are spellcasters but that's a problem created by having a large party not one created by the system.

Basilisk- that disintegrate in question will never hit a character with a decent amount of magical protection (touch AC= 28).

Well, I was not writing that up to demonstrate that an NPC could whoop on the PCs but rather that a PC constructed under a different philosophy could destroy NPCs or monsters just as quickly (if not more quickly) than the buffing characters.

That being said, let's play your game.

Let me see touch AC of 28 would mean dex of 46 or more likely, a +5 deflection bonus (must be a massively expensive ring since Shield of Faith/Protection from evil can't be made persistent and doesn't last long), a +4 haste bonus, and a 28 dex. (Either that or a persistent shield spell but only high level wizards can have that since it's a personal range spell of too high a level to be put in a potion or reliably read from a scroll with only a single level of sor/wiz). Even so, to get a 28 dex you need to start out with a dex of 18, put four stat increases into dex, and get another +6 from an expensive item or an empowered cat's grace. That's a lot of resources--if that kind of thing is common in your party, they're either much richer than the system assumes or they need to be facing finger of death/wail of the banshee instead of disintegrate. In the wizard's case, the touch AC must come from +4 haste, -1 size (annis form), +5 deflection, +7 cover, +3 dex (average to poor cat's grace considering the annis's dex).

So, what does the Transmuter do to beat this "impressive" touch AC. Starting assumptions: 12th level wizard=BAB +6. Dex 14 and cat's grace will probably give the wizard +10 to his ranged attack assuming he didn't spend feats on weapon focus, point blank, and precise shot, etc). Still that's only +10 to hit. I suppose the wizard could polymorph into a pixie and pump that up to +13 (figuring in a size bonus as well) but the wizard still needs to roll well. But a quickened true strike is only 5th level so said wizard can cast haste, a quickened true strike, and disintegrate and still have spent fewer spells than the combat monster wizard did to buff himself up.

Alternately, he could just disintegrate a couple of the wizard's friends--the rogue, and bard are probably easier to hit and even a fighter probably has to roll above a ten to succeed at the disintegrate's fortitude save.

You need to be hasted and to have True Strike to hit. In addition, Tenser's Transformation is my example of one of the few buff spells strong enough to be cast in combat at high levels. Greater Spell Focus seems to be a weird feat- being restricted to one school of spells is bad, since you can usually only force enemies to make one type of save, but people who are weak against that save are definitely dead.

It also usually has the effect that even people who are strong against that save need to roll decently in order to succeed against your high level spells. So rogues and monks are caught fairly regularly by Greater Spell Focussed reflex saves. Incidentally, Transmutation is the exception to the "generally only one save" rule. It's got reflex saves like burning hands (quite nice for a 2nd level 5d4 cone of cold imitation if you use sculpt spell on it), will saves like slow and bestow curse, and fortitude saves like blindness/deafness, Polymorph other, and disintegrate.

Can Slow really do what you say it can? I thought you still got a save to avoid its effects. If so, Boots of Speed (which I am pretty sure can't ever be negated with Slow) are a more attractive option for everyone.

Yup. Read the spell description. It says it counters/dispells haste and it has 1/target per level. Which makes it more properly the opposite of mass haste than of haste.

It would even work on boots of speed which are specifically described as a haste effect. (The user of the boots could activate them the next round but that would still be losing the possibility of making two full round actions which is quite significant for fighters and sorcerors).

I don't really think of D&D as a counterspelling game. I remember the last high level fight that featured counter-spelling: we countered a lot of things, but weren't high enough level to counter the Wail of the Banshee that killed my character.

I don't think of it that way either. I suppose it could become one if you focussed a character on counterspelling and used the improved counterspell, reflexive counterspell, etc. feats from MoF but that's the DM's choice and the player's choice for allowing and using those feats.

Loading up on 20th level scrolls of greater dispelling is ridiculously expensive and isn't even an option in most games. Otherwise, you'll usually not have much better than a 50% chance to counterspell with a dispel magic/greater dispelling. Regular counterspelling only works if you know what the enemy will throw at you (which you shouldn't in most cases).

Let me say it again:
The primary reason why you use buff spells is that you can cast them well before combat. The secondary reason is that they provide very good benefits. The fact that those benefits come without taking up any of your precious actions during combat is the most important thing.
Roand- [/B]

Very true. And the effect of long term buffs is correspondingly lower the fewer fights you get into. In one fight, a bull's strength probably makes less difference than a hold person or glitterdust and a GMW probably isn't as effective as a summon monster III or a fireball. If you fight several battles during the duration of those buff spells, they begin to approach the effectiveness of direct attack spells (on a spell by spell basis). The risk, of course, is that you won't have the big firepower when it could otherwise turn the course of a combat because you used it up on buffs.

These precast buffs are also quite vulnerable to dispel magic/greater dispelling which will regularly be cast.

Incidentally, there are more worthwhile in-combat buffs--even at high levels. Off the top of my head:
Divine Power, Righteous Might, Bear's Heart, Divine Sacrifice, Prayer, Blink, Improved Invisibility (sometimes this will be cast before combat but not always because combat is often unable to be anticipated within 7-20 minutes' accuracy), See Invisible, Protection From Arrows, Tenser's Transformation, Haste, Mass Haste, Mass Resist Elements, Shapechange, Iron Body, Lesser Aspect of the Deity, Greater Aspect of the Deity, True Seeing, Displacement, Blur, Aspect of the Deity.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I think that Elric makes some good points, but as it stands it would be extraordinarily difficult to do anything about it.

I don't think there can be any argument that buffing spells are far more important now than in any previous version of D&D - they last long, can provide big bonuses and can be effectively metamagiced.

The reason why it would be difficult to do anything about it is that this whole buffing idea is deeply rooted into the entire fabric of 3e - Take a look at the most powerful enemies and you will see astronomical AC and attack bonuses. Unless you just don't use those kinds of creatures, the PCs are going to NEED buffs to have any kind of way of coping. AC values, hit points, melee damage, attack bonuses, number of attacks - all of these have increased dramatically in 3e.

If I were to restart my campaign, one thing that I would do is reduce the duration of the any hour-per-level buffing spells into minutes-per-level. This would still make them great for a particular combat, but would prevent whole parties wandering around buffed up to the eyeballs. (I'd also make sure that any spells expire during a teleport to prevent the scry-buff-teleport routine, but that is another story).

Cheers

 

[Elric]

Ok, I should point out that these observations are mostly made for big parties (6-8 people). A big party has more chances to complement each other's abilities with spells and items. A party with two powerful melee fighters, two divine casters, two arcane casters, a rogue and one more character (probably a Cleric- everyone loves Clerics) has a huge advantage in terms of buff spells. They can have a lot of different spellcaster types and still get the buff spells that they need cast.

Basilisk- you've now used an extra feat from Quicken. In addition, buff spells are effective without requiring any feats, although it is harder to have them on exactly when you want them. However, the Iconic Wizard can do all of my example as a 12th level caster. No magic items, or even non-PH feats and races.

Save or Die spells really are the best way to counter characters with buff spells, since the buff spells don't really help in avoiding them. Fighter-types, on the other hand, need buff spells to have any chance against buffed opponents. A lot of enemies with SR and high saves (for example, a Mature Adult Red Dragon with say, 50k well spent on items) are very hard to defeat with magic unless you use Greater Spell Focus/Penetration, (Spellcasting) Prodigy Grey Elven Archmage-Incantatrix-Red Wizard types. Thus, most casters are better off using buff spells to give people a chance in melee.

Forrester's thread (the one Darkness posted a link to) shows that effect quite clearly, with magic items instead of buff spells. Divine Power, the haste spells, Tenser's, Improved Invisibility/Displacement (depending on whether or not you're a rogue and what type of enemy you're facing) and Stoneskin (until the very high levels) are the only PH buff spells that I can really see being used proactively in combat most of the time. Dispels hurt a lot more when you use combat actions to cast those buff spells. Again, I don't know the class books very well. Also, the point about slow is new. I'm not sure, but my last campaign might have played it as a Will save to avoid having your haste countered (which explains why I didn't see Slow used very often). Slow is a "silver bullet" that makes Haste much easier to get rid of than most spells should be. The fact that Slow is there doesn't make Haste balanced- it just results in metagaming within the game.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Originally posted by Elric Ok, I should point out that these observations are mostly made for big parties (6-8 people). A big party has more chances to complement each other's abilities with spells and items. A party with two powerful melee fighters, two divine casters, two arcane casters, a rogue and one more character (probably a Cleric- everyone loves Clerics) has a huge advantage in terms of buff spells. They can have a lot of different spellcaster types and still get the buff spells that they need cast.

From the looks of things, you're also dealing with high level parties who know what's coming for them. After all, 3rd and 4th level spell slots only cease to become a scarce commodity around 10th level and higher.

In Living Greyhawk scenarios (which usually featured 6 characters in the Pale--which was where I lived until recently), spells were scarce enought that even with three single classed clerics, one multiclassed cleric, and a wizard in the party of six with an average party level of 7 spell slots for buffing spells were still a scarce commodity. Consequently, characters were never universally buffed for all encounters during a single day.

Of course, these were all characters who had a few of their spells used for things like hold person, remove paralysis, glitterdust, and flaming sphere as well as bull's strength and endurance. If the party is willing to forgoe all other magical support, then buffs may be more available at lower levels (although I suspect that the party as a whole will be less effective). The only time I've seen an entire party with buff spells up was when there was a 5th level sorceror with Cat's Grace and Acid Arrow playing. The entire party benefitted from Cat's Grace that adventure (since Acid arrow is less efficient than magic missile at level 5).

Basilisk- you've now used an extra feat from Quicken. In addition, buff spells are effective without requiring any feats, although it is harder to have them on exactly when you want them. However, the Iconic Wizard can do all of my example as a 12th level caster. No magic items, or even non-PH feats and races.

Not really. You need Persistent Spell in order to have your shield spell up 24/7. Persistent spell comes from Tome and Blood.

The save or die and area effect spells are effective without feats as well--they just need to be targetted more carefully as characters with strong saves will probably resist them.

Anyway, it's foolish to compare spell choices a priori as if they floated around in the minds of characters who didn't have feats. Characters will select feats that complement their abilities. The buffing wizard will probably take extend spell, persistent spell, and possibly martial weapon proficiency and weapon focus (so that he can use his greatsword in Annis form before level 11 (when he can cast Tenser's Transformation). A blaster wizard will take Spell focus, Greater Spell Focus, and Quicken Spell. Either way, both wizards still have feats left for other things.

Save or Die spells really are the best way to counter characters with buff spells, since the buff spells don't really help in avoiding them. Fighter-types, on the other hand, need buff spells to have any chance against buffed opponents. A lot of enemies with SR and high saves (for example, a Mature Adult Red Dragon with say, 50k well spent on items) are very hard to defeat with magic unless you use Greater Spell Focus/Penetration, (Spellcasting) Prodigy Grey Elven Archmage-Incantatrix-Red Wizard types. Thus, most casters are better off using buff spells to give people a chance in melee.

You're right that save or die spells are very effective against buffed characters. So are spells like Greater Dispelling (which is a very efficient use of the round since players usually try to set themselves up so that they can act efficiently next round and calculate risks based upon their buffed state. If a Greater Dispelling strips the fighter's haste, bull's strength, Cat's Grace, Magic Vestment, Displacement, and Greater Magic Weapon, not only is the fighter not in a position to take down the opponent he's facing with a full attack and partial charge another opponent (since he's no longer hasted) but he is also much more likely to be pounded into the earth by an opponent he supposed wouldn't be able to hit him. (At moderate to high levels, characters can often die in a single round if a monster hits on all attacks and rolls well for damage).

On the other hand, buff spells aren't the only way to deal with foes that have good saves and DR. Summoning spells can be effective against them. Also by 12th level, characters focussed on blasting can be expected to have at least spell focus and spell penetration so, with a bit of luck they can effect those creatures as well. Spell resistance and saves are much more effective against spellcasters who aren't designed to deal with them than against spellcasters who are.

Forrester's thread (the one Darkness posted a link to) shows that effect quite clearly, with magic items instead of buff spells. Divine Power, the haste spells, Tenser's, Improved Invisibility/Displacement (depending on whether or not you're a rogue and what type of enemy you're facing) and Stoneskin (until the very high levels) are the only PH buff spells that I can really see being used proactively in combat most of the time. Dispels hurt a lot more when you use combat actions to cast those buff spells.

I disagree for reasons written earlier. Dispels hurt even more when they get the whole list (or even a large part of the list) of precast buff spells. The wizard in your example will be in real trouble if a greater dispelling or anti-magic field drops his haste, polymorph self, tenser's transformation, and shield (and that's only about half of his active buff spells) when he's going toe to toe with a fire giant fighter. Unless the wizard's next action was before the fire giant's, odds are good that the wizard wouldn't live to see his next round.

As for only particular spells being in combat buff spells, that's only true at high levels (12+ and even then, protection from arrows and shield belong on that list--everybody won't have persistent spell) and still assumes that the party spends a large chunk of its available spell resources on extended buffing spells. At lower levels, spell resources don't permit 24/7 buffing so players have to make educated guesses as to when combat is likely to occur if they wish to avoid casting their bull's strengths, etc during combat.