Are CRPGs really role-playing games?

[ThirdWizard]

"The earliest CRPGs were inspired by early role-playing games, especially Dungeons and Dragons, and attempted to provide a similar play experience."

"Simulation: The representation of the behavior or characteristics of one system through the use of another system, esp. a computer program designed for the purpose."

You're equating "similar" to "simulate." This is incorrect.

 

[Ourph]

RPG: You control a character.
CRPG: You simulate control of a character, whose parameters of choice are actually controlled (regulared; dominated) by one or more programmers.

If unlimited control of a character is the standard for being a "real" RPG rather than a simulation then D&D doesn't meet the standard. In D&D, the rules, the dice, the DM and the game designers all exert some control over your character as well.

Flight: You fly a plane.
Flight Simulator: You fly a simulated plane.

D&D: You control an fictitious character.
cRPG: You control a fictitious character.

Sorry, ThirdWizard FTW.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

RC, what does D&D simulate?

 

[Raven Crowking]

You're equating "similar" to "simulate." This is incorrect.

No, I am equating "attempt[ing] to provide a similar play experience" of a system with "the representation of the behavior or characteristics of" that system.

I take it that you do not argue with "the use of another system, esp. a computer program designed for the purpose."

Do you honestly claim that early computer "RPGs" did not attempt to representat the behavior or characteristics of D&D or similar systems?

 

[Raven Crowking]

RC, what does D&D simulate?

I would say that early D&D was an attempt to simulate the experiences of characters in Sword & Sorcery fiction, albeit with a lot of admixture from other sources. Of course, admixture from other sources was/is a staple of the S&S genre.

Of course, subsequent editions changed this in many ways, expanding upon what was being emulated in some cases, and removing points of emulation in others. What the current edition of D&D simulates is hard to say. I would hazard to say that, in some ways, it simulates the experiences of characters in computer adventure game worlds, which makes D&D and computer adventure games (in part) a recursive influence on each other.

IMHO, anyway.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

If unlimited control of a character is the standard for being a "real" RPG rather than a simulation then D&D doesn't meet the standard. In D&D, the rules, the dice, the DM and the game designers all exert some control over your character as well.

Answered often and well, by many folks better equipped to do so than I.

Neither dice, nor rules, nor game designers control your character in a role-playing game more than the participants desire. And Gary was pretty clear in the 1st Ed PHB that, if you found your DM was controlling your character more than you desire, you should quit that game and find another (or start one yourself).

RC

 

[Doug McCrae]

RC, as ThirdWizard pointed out, if crpgs were a simulation of a simulation they would resemble Munchkin. You would be controlling a pixellated representation of a fat sweaty guy in a black t-shirt. You could click a button to argue with the DM, and another to send out for pizza. This is not the case with most crpgs. Rather they are simulating a similar fictional reality to the one that D&D simulates. In some respects crpgs do a better job of this simulation. In others they do a worse one. But there's no extra layer of remove. They're not mere shadows to the living breathing reality of human rpgs. They're both just games. You might like one more than the other but that doesn't make it more real.

 

[Raven Crowking]

RC, as ThirdWizard pointed out, if crpgs were a simulation of a simulation they would resemble Munchkin.

And, as has been pointed out many times, this is fallicious reasoning.

Two things that simulate X, regardless of what X is, can vary greatly based upon what parts of X they choose to focus in their simulation, the method by which the simulation is created, and the particular slant on X used in the simulation.

Munchkin is as much a simulation of/commentary on gamer culture as it is a simulation of a role-playing game.

 

[Doug McCrae]

"The earliest CRPGs were inspired by early role-playing games, especially Dungeons and Dragons, and attempted to provide a similar play experience."

"Simulation: The representation of the behavior or characteristics of one system through the use of another system, esp. a computer program designed for the purpose."

Together, "The earliest CRPGs were inspired by early role-playing games, especially Dungeons and Dragons, and attempted to represent a similar play experience through the use of a computer program designed for the purpose."

The Simpsons movie was inspired by the TV series and attempts to provide a similar viewing experience.

Does that mean the movie is a simulation of the TV series?

 

[Raven Crowking]

The Simpsons movie was inspired by the TV series and attempts to provide a similar viewing experience.

Does that mean the movie is a simulation of the TV series?

Absolutely. In fact, although this is not the terminology preferred by the film makers, it is that simulation that the film relies upon for its viewing audience. Both may fall under the category of "The Simpsons", but the movie is not "The Simpsons TV Show".

Similarly, the LotR movies are a (in some ways excellent, in other ways disappointing) simulation of the novels in another medium.

RC