Are kids playing tabletop D&D these days?

[Reynard]

Well, D&D can be played online right now, as the large number of PbP/PbE/PbWhatever games attest. I guess it must not be D&D, eh?

Not surprisingly, you intentionally missed my point. If you design the game with the virtual tabletop as a fundamental aspect, then the assumption is that anything that one can do in the game one must be able to do on the virtual tabletop. it informs and limits the game design in a way that is new to D&D, which has largely been designed throughout its life to not only be played on a real tabletop, but in words and mental images.

 

[The Little Raven]

Not surprisingly, you intentionally missed my point. If you design the game with the virtual tabletop as a fundamental aspect, then the assumption is that anything that one can do in the game one must be able to do on the virtual tabletop. it informs and limits the game design in a way that is new to D&D, which has largely been designed throughout its life to not only be played on a real tabletop, but in words and mental images.

It'd be nice if you actually provided some sort of explanation for this "limit in game design", because all I'm getting from this is if you use a virtual battlemat in place of a physical one, you suddenly lose the ability to communicate and imagine things.

 

[Reynard]

It'd be nice if you actually provided some sort of explanation for this "limit in game design", because all I'm getting from this is if you use a virtual battlemat in place of a physical one, you suddenly lose the ability to communicate and imagine things.

The intended "play space" of a game has a direct impact on that game's design. If the intended play space of 4E includes the virtual tabletop, the impact is going to be determined by the limitations inherent in the virtual tabletop, whatever those may be. For example, in 3E, the intended playspace is a 1 inch battle grid on a real table. While this too creates some limitations (conflict at long range comes to mind) those limitations are more easily overcome because we can phycially manipulate the environment (pull out the tape measure) or use abstraction (these squares each represent 50 feet until you get closer). It is a lot more difficult to manipulate the virtual environment because you need either a comprehensive toolset and/or a working knowledge of the system.

Now, the extent to which the VTT impacts the design will depend on how robust and abstract the system is. The more things the VTT does for you -- rolling dice, determining line of sight/effect, resolving areas of effect and so on -- the more impact it will have on the design. The less it does, the more the DM has to adjudicate over the VTT, the less impact it will have. But the impact will be there in either case because it is part of 4E's intended play space.

 

[JDJblatherings]

What do they play when they want to roleplay? Savage Worlds. Especially with the new Explorer's Edition, all of them have the book (since it is a complete RPG in one book, covering not just fantasy but all genres and it's just $10.00) and they all love it. The price is a major factor in them liking it, as well as not having to read through three large books.

modern D&D really needs a basic or Lite rulebook that is as good as the old days basic/expert booklets.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

All social interaction is superior face to face.

I don't know, there are definitely some people that I've gamed with in the past that were better off kept at a distance...

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I just wanted to say jdrakeh and Rechan made some good points as far as videogames vs. tabletop.

Something their comments made me think about is one factor that is the wildcard as far as videogames vs. tabletop rpg's go...the GM. I play both and the main difference I see is, with a videogame you can do a little research on the internet and basically know what your experience will be. They have a standard play experience. TT rpg's on the other hand have common rules but a totally variable play experience depending on who is DM'ing. Your first game could easily be something that hooks you for life or that totally turns you away, and most of it is dependant upon the GM.

Right on the money with this statement here. As a matter a fact I think this statement is more telling than any argument or discussion over system mechanics. If your first DM makes it a sucky experience for you then youre not going to want to continue playing. I was lucky that I started out DMing and had a vested interest in getting my players TO KEEP PLAYING. This was when I was 13-14 years old. Even now I can say that some of my best DMing experiences have been with new players. It's an awesome feeling, when you see them "getting it". Also they dont yet have a lot of the hangups that experienced players have so their willing to try things that the average player wont without fear of reprisal. DM's should nuture new / novice players instead of beating the crap out of them (in the game I mean...)

factor that favors WoW is that it is always available and I don't have to search for a game or depend on someone to take up the mantle of GM.

YES. See, this is something I've been bringing up FOR YEARS, whenever talking to the anti-MMORPG set. To everyone of them who has looked down their nose at WOW, I've said the same thing. It's usually no problem to just jump onto Guild Wars or City of Heroes / Villians. But planning and coordinating a game can be a real pain in the butt. Especially when you have a group of people who all have different schedules and lives. I prefer face to face gaming but sometimes getting to that point is just plain HARD.

 

[Imaro]

Side Tangent: I don't think that D&D players are against teching their game. I personally was all for computer tools that facilitate and enhance the table top experience. Yet the type of tools I would have liked to see were never fully realized in 3e. An accurate and updatable character/monster generator, overland and dungeon mapping software, treasure generator, etc...For a great example of this check out the AD&D 2nd ed. core rules CD and exspansion CD.

My main beef with the way 4e is bringing D&D into the technological age is that it is subscription and web based. I don't want to have to be online in order to use the tools for a game I'm running on the tabletop (which also has the adverse effect of being useless, yet still paid for, if my internet connection happens to be down). I don't want to have to be locked into paying for a set amount of time to keep the characters I created on their software and regardless of whether DDI is meeting my needs and expectations or not. I want software that enhances my game, what I'm not keen on is the implementation that WotC has chosen to use. This specifically seems to have been focused, not for the general WotC customer, but for the customer who favors online play. (and this is where I think the major lines of contention have been drawn, especially for those who were dissapointed by WotC's tech support during 3.0 and 3.5)

What I wonder is whether this market is actually larger than the one for tools that could be used on or offline? I seriously doubt it.

 

[Panamon Creel]

modern D&D really needs a basic or Lite rulebook that is as good as the old days basic/expert booklets.

I completely agree. There was the "basic set" for 3E, but I looked at it once and thought it stunk. It looked like it only handled up to 3 levels and the adventure looked really lame.

If they want to attract new gamers, a really cool boxed set with a few simple rule books priced affordably should be a no brainer. I can see kids and parents being intimidated by the price and length of the core books as others have mentioned.

 

[Geoffrey]

A little over a year ago I gave a one-hour presentation on H. P. Lovecraft to a group of about 30 high school students. I pointed out that Lovecraft was an inspiration for the Dungeons & Dragons game. I was initially pleased to see that so many students claimed familiarity with D&D. I was very disappointed to find out that they were all talking about some sort of computer games.

 

[TheLummox]

One point that I didn't see covered here (forgive me if it was, I couldn't get all the way through two pages of posts) is geographic isolation. Some people, myself included, live in the absolute middle of nowhere. I have to drive more than an hour to see a movie in theater. The closest game store to me is more than 100 miles away.

It has been this way for me for the better part of my life, and I imagine it is true for a lot of kids. For people like me, MMOs are about the only type of gaming we have.

D&D and tabletop gaming in general have many enormous factors keeping it from attaining the market share we all think it deserves. Nothing any of have to say here is going to change that.
The DDI is not going to fix this. The best that can be done is for all of us to enjoy what Gary and Dave and the rest of those guys gave us. If you can get some kids involved, great. The fact remains that this is a niche within a niche within a niche and it will always be that way.