D&D General Are NPCs like PCs?

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

To read the question another way: I do wish I could use pc building rule to make balanced-for-combat npcs. The fact that I can't use a 5th-level fighter as a reasonable challenge in 5e DnD annoys me and is a flaw in the game.

Like I get why (they wanted smooth progressions of pc abilities that also look like the traditional progressions) and know not to, but I feel like I should be able to, ya know?

I’m not a DM, but I fail to see why you couldn’t use a fighter as a challenge in 5e? I’m pretty sure our DM has some NPCs made like PCs and it seemed to work well from my side of the screen

 

[NotAYakk]

It's an unreasonable fight - the fighter hits twice as hard as a level-appropriate monster, but has half the hit points. The fight is basically rocket tag.

The Veteran is a monster similar to a 5th level fighter.

An 14 con L 5 fighter with the Tough feat has 10+6*4+4*5=54 HP. The Veteran has 58 HP.

The L 5 fighter with 16 strength has a +6 to hit and attacks for 1d8+5 damage per swing one handed (Dueling) x2. If they have 2 shortswords they instead attack for 1d6+3 times 3.

This nearly exactly matches the Veteran. The LS Veteran version does 2d10+6 (17) vs the Fighter LS 2d8+10 (19). The SS Veteran does 3d6+9 (19.5), same as Fighter.

The L 5 fighter has second wind (1d10+5) and an action surge on top of the Veteran and 1 additional point of proficiency.

So, literally, if you dropped a L 5 fighter into a game you could get a fight that was nearly indistinguishable on the PC side from using a stock Monster Manual Veteran. You could also build the Fighter to be less meaty and more aggressive.

I mean, action surge ain't nothing. The Veteran is probably closer to a L 4.5 fighter.

HP including Second Wind: 44 + 5.5 + 4 = 54
Cut Action Surge for +1 attack/round (a bit of an upgrade; over a 3 round fight, it is 6 attacks instead of 4).
Lose a point of proficiency.
Lose saving throw proficiency.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Why? Bodyguard is not a PC class. If there was one it may have abilities very different from existing classes. Why would you restrict what a bodyguard can do / be for really no reason I can see?

Because even if they wouldn't, it's weird to say "you can't learn to do that, because you're a pc." The pc has the same question as the player, and the pc doesn't know they're a pc.

Basically, there should either be an in-universe reason why they can't or the door should (at least technically) be open to them learning it.

"You would need to be a 15th-level bodyguard" is an okay answer, because while levels don't exist in universe per se, they represent something (actually several things) that do exist in-universe (training and experience, mostly.) So hypothetically the fighter could have learned it, but they chose a different path.

 

[Cadence]

The Veteran is a monster similar to a 5th level fighter.

An 14 con L 5 fighter with the Tough feat has 10+6*4+4*5=54 HP. The Veteran has 58 HP.

The L 5 fighter with 16 strength has a +6 to hit and attacks for 1d8+5 damage per swing one handed (Dueling) x2. If they have 2 shortswords they instead attack for 1d6+3 times 3.

This nearly exactly matches the Veteran.

The L 5 fighter has second wind (1d10+5) and an action surge on top of the Veteran and 1 additional point of proficiency.

So, literally, if you dropped a L 5 fighter into a game you could get a fight that was nearly indistinguishable on the PC side from using a stock Monster Manual Veteran. You could also build the Fighter to be less meaty and more aggressive.

I've never used CR in 5e. Is it correct that five Veterans (each CR3, 700 XP) would be pretty close to the Hard encounter mark for 5 fifth level characters?

 

[Maxperson]

Why? Bodyguard is not a PC class. If there was one it may have abilities very different from existing classes. Why would you restrict what a bodyguard can do / be for really no reason I can see?

Bodyguard isn't an NPC class, either. It's a job. A job that a PC fighter, ranger, paladin, monk, cleric, etc. can all do. Further, PC and NPC are purely metagame constructs. There is no difference in the game world, so in world restrictions based on those things make no sense.

 

[NotAYakk]

I've never used CR in 5e. Is it correct that five Veterans (each CR3, 700 XP) would be pretty close to the Hard encounter mark for 5 fifth level characters?

Lazy DM's CR is "add it up".

5 Veterans sum to 15 CR. 5 5th level PCs is 25 total levels. 15/25 is 0.6, a beyond deadly encounter.

(Easy is 20%, Medium 25%, Hard is 33%, Deadly is 40%).

Deadly in 5e means "there is a decent risk a PC will die".

(This doesn't work without fudge factors for CRs <=1 or >=20, and is approximate.)

The fancy "encounter size multiplier" and "XP" tables of 5e end up doing almost exactly the opposite of each other. Ie, (XP(CR) * N)*EncounterSizeMult(N) ends up being mostly linear in N*CR.

 

[Maxperson]

I've never used CR in 5e. Is it correct that five Veterans (each CR3, 700 XP) would be pretty close to the Hard encounter mark for 5 fifth level characters?

According to the XP Threshold table, close to it. Hard would be 3750xp worth of monsters. Your encounter is 3500.

Edit: No, wait. 5 of a monster multiplies that by 2. So it's beyond deadly as @NotAYakk said.

 

[LordEntrails]

To read the question another way: I do wish I could use pc building rule to make balanced-for-combat npcs. The fact that I can't use a 5th-level fighter as a reasonable challenge in 5e DnD annoys me and is a flaw in the game.

Like I get why (they wanted smooth progressions of pc abilities that also look like the traditional progressions) and know not to, but I feel like I should be able to, ya know?

A 5th level fighter is a challenge for a party and you can use it that way. It's just not a challenge for a party of four 5th level PCs. Note that using PC built NPCs for creatures makes combat much more "swingy" because the NPCs will have fewer HP and die faster, but often will be able to nova and do more damage. So if unpredictable encounters are what you are going for...

 

[Cadence]

There's a related more particular question that just came up in a thread at:

https://www.enworld.org/threads/proficiency-bonus-for-npcs-and-monsters.685421/

 

[LordEntrails]

I've never used CR in 5e. Is it correct that five Veterans (each CR3, 700 XP) would be pretty close to the Hard encounter mark for 5 fifth level characters?

Don't forget what "Hard" means. It does not mean hard or difficult for the party to win, it means they will probably have to use some of their resources. Even "Deadly" only means it is possible one or more PCs may die, so deadly encounters can still usually be "won" by a party.