Are people still mad about . . .

[Theo R Cwithin]

So, yeah, that's something that still bugs me. People talk about how insulting the posts were, how the Dev's were trash talking all over the place, but, when you start to actually drill down and take an honest look, suddenly, most of the material is pretty banal and moderate.

Like I said, which is more likely? That people who had a hate on for the edition change started claiming that they were victims of big bad WOTC, or that WOTC really was out to piddle on the community that they'd spent about ten years building?

You might be right. But that's also completely irrelevant.

I've never studied business or marketing, but it seems to be a basic premise of marketing is that it is the marketer's responsibility not to offend the (potential) customer. It is not the (potential) customer's responsibility not to be offended by the marketing. And this especially applies in a world as small as the community of D&D players.

The mea culpa PCat posted upthread bears this out: WoTC understands they made a mistake. Honestly, I think that's very cool of them, and deserves some notice on the part of people who were miffed by the whole thing.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Microsoft office.

Lame. Try naming a RPG that appeals to everyone and I'll discuss this with you. Microsoft Office doesn't even appeal to everyone, sorry to tell you.

WotC keeps laying off its employees. Doesn't sound like a stunning success to me.

Yep. They did this in the 3E days too. Geuss by your measure 3E was a dismal failure. They pulled their support for it too so it must be even a bigger flop. Please.

Poison pill clause and late release are the reasons, obviously. It ain't because D&D stopped being a source of income.

Other publishers picked up the GSL and are producing 4E material despite your "obvious" reasons.

When I address "WotC" I am addressing the corporate entity. When I start naming names, is when it becomes a personal attack. Believe me, you'll know the difference.

Yeah, calling the "Brand Manager of D&D" a "fool" is targeting the company and not an individual. This is what I meant by you viewing WotC as an entity instead of the individuals that make it up. Contradict yourself much? Where's that ignore button?

Folks, this is a good example of the sort of thing that gets you threadbanned. When you start arguing AT someone else instead of discussing an issue, please walk away from the keyboard for a while. ~ Piratecat

 

[Chrono22]

In any case, the GSL was a mistake. 3rd party support is key to increasing market exposure. The timing of the GSL's release and it's poison pill clause forced 3ps to choose- less 3ps means less new players.
Same applies to the PDF fiasco. Less customer access means less customers.

 

[Scribble]

I say next we debate about whether or not we should debate about past debates!

 

[Gimby]

In any case, the GSL was a mistake. 3rd party support is key to increasing market exposure. The timing of the GSL's release and it's poison pill clause forced 3ps to choose- less 3ps means less new players.
Same applies to the PDF fiasco. Less customer access means less customers.

Is it really though? How much 3rd party support do companies like White Wolf, SJG and so on have?

 

[renau1g]

I say next we debate about whether or not we should debate about past debates!

I will take that challenge sir!

So I think we should not re-open old debates, but leave sleeping tigers lie(well that is unless you think we shouldn't re-open them, to which I retort, No we must reopen old wounds, let the air get to them and clean out the bad blood ).... what say you?

 

[PoeticJustice]

I don't think many people are still mad about what was done and said two years ago (for my sake, I hope not), but there are ways in which I don't think the community has fully healed.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Now I don't know the entire user base but in an area with only two game stores, I don't know anyone who plays 4e - no group in either of those two stores. Granted the area is rural so we're not talking huge numbers here, but I know about 40 people who play RPGs, most still play 3e, some Pathfinder, but I know of no one here, that play 4e. One store owner says, he's stuck with all these 4e books and they are not selling.

Again, one tiny slice of the market. But it says something here.

GP

Supposedly something similar is occurring at the local Borders, at least according to a friend who works there.

I dislike 4e, but I find his observations dubious - he is basing them primarily on returns, that returns to the publisher are higher for 4e than for 3.5 - which may very well be true, and that sales are lower, here I believe that he is comparing peak to peak, rather than 4e vs. 3.5 at the end of its product cycle. 3.5 at its peak was a massive seller, but I think that by the time 4e appeared the popularity was waning.

4e did not have to beat 3.5 at its peak, it just has to beat 3.5 at its tail end. It also seems that Borders is ordering much larger numbers of 4e books than they did for 3.5, so even if sales were exactly the same they would have larger returns to the publisher.

3rd party products are gone entirely - only official WotC products are for sale for D&D, though Pathfinder has made an appearance for the OGL market.

The Auld Grump

 

[Umbran]

Clearly, some people are still mad about things - mad enough to continue arguing about them.

Let's be clear about something - if you are still mad about something, even now, that suggests that all the previous discussion of it failed to alleviate your anger and frustration. I'd take that as an indication that further discussion isn't going to help.

And further, if you see someone still angry - that's an indication that you are not going to change their mind through further discussion here.

Which is to say that this thread is useful to note what people are still annoyed at - but it isn't any good for hashing through those arguments yet again. Don't start warring here, folks.

 

[Piratecat]

I've just threadbanned a few folks. No more personal attacks, please; if you're angry at some of the things being discussed, walk away from the keyboard for a bit until you can discuss it without insulting other people.

EDIT: drat, beaten by two minutes!