D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[roger semerad]

I'd be interested in knowing if the 4e proponents think the following 4 powers could look samey or at least seem extremely similar in execution on a grid?

At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Special: You can move 2 squares before the attack.
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.


At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Special: Shift 1 square before or after you attack
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.

At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Special: Before you attack, you let one ally adjacent to either
you or the target shift 1 square as a free action.
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Strength modifier at 21st level.

At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the
target 1 square if it is your size, smaller than you, or one
size category larger. You can shift into the space that the
target occupied

The first two powers definitely have some similarity, as they're both skirmisher abilities. They're still deferent in execution though.

The first can only be used before the attack, meaning it has to be used aggressively to attack an opponent. It also has a shift of two which allows it to reposition into a flanking position more easily if already in melee range, or it would be enough to get into melee range without provoking an attack of opportunity against someone with extended reach. Both of which describe an agile aggressive fighter.

The second power can be used before or after the attack which gives it some more flexibility than the first, but has a shorter shift and can only be used with a ranged weapon. This makes it much less useful for setting up flanking. The power can also be used to increase the distance from an opponent beyond your base speed, or fire then move behind blocking terrain to give you cover. This maneuver describes a careful defensive fighter.

The second two really don't have any similarity at all beyond involving movement in some form. The third is a fighter controlling a target to allow an ally to reposition, and the fourth is a fighter pushing back his opponent. Those are two very different tactics.

 

[Imaro]

The first two powers definitely have some similarity, as they're both skirmisher abilities. They're still deferent in execution though.

The first can only be used before the attack, meaning it has to be used aggressively to attack an opponent. It also has a shift of two which allows it to reposition into a flanking position more easily if already in melee range, or it would be enough to get into melee range without provoking an attack of opportunity against someone with extended reach. Both of which describe an agile aggressive fighter.

The second power can be used before or after the attack which gives it some more flexibility than the first, but has a shorter shift and can only be used with a ranged weapon. This makes it much less useful for setting up flanking. The power can also be used to increase the distance from an opponent beyond your base speed, or fire then move behind blocking terrain to give you cover. This maneuver describes a careful defensive fighter.

The second two really don't have any similarity at all beyond involving movement in some form. The third is a fighter controlling a target to allow an ally to reposition, and the fourth is a fighter pushing back his opponent. Those are two very different tactics.

You're analyzing them... picture them on a grid. The first two are identical if both are used before the attack for only one square of movement. The third is a warlord power that is a shift and then attack very similar to the second power and the fighter one is the most different but still similar enough to the other four with a push and shift after attack to feel samey. In other words they all feel like a slight variation on the same formula.

EDIT: Furthermore I think it's intentional design since I believe the developers thought similar powers would make the transition to different classes easier for players.

 

[Garthanos]

The first two powers definitely have some similarity, as they're both skirmisher abilities. They're still deferent in execution though.

The first can only be used before the attack, meaning it has to be used aggressively to attack an opponent. It also has a shift of two which allows it to reposition into a flanking position more easily if already in melee range, or it would be enough to get into melee range without provoking an attack of opportunity against someone with extended reach. Both of which describe an agile aggressive fighter.

The second power can be used before or after the attack which gives it some more flexibility than the first, but has a shorter shift and can only be used with a ranged weapon. This makes it much less useful for setting up flanking. The power can also be used to increase the distance from an opponent beyond your base speed, or fire then move behind blocking terrain to give you cover. This maneuver describes a careful defensive fighter.

The second two really don't have any similarity at all beyond involving movement in some form. The third is a fighter controlling a target to allow an ally to reposition, and the fourth is a fighter pushing back his opponent. Those are two very different tactics.

In comparison we have every single martial class in 5e with

• "press and strike"
• "take down strike"
• "grab and strike"
• "twin attack"

no subtle role enhancing differences at all.

 

[Imaro]

In comparison we have every single martial class in 5e with

• "press and strike"
• "take down strike"
• "grab and strike"
• "twin attack"

no subtle role enhancing differences at all.

Are each of those listed in 5e as an individual ability for a class?

 

[Garthanos]

Are each of those listed in 5e as an individual ability for a class?

P R E S E N T A T I O N

 

[Imaro]

P R E S E N T A T I O N

Wait so your argument is that every AT-Will in 4e is actually a power anyone can use?? If not... Huh??

 

[Garthanos]

Wait so your argument is that every AT-Will in 4e is actual a power anyone can use?? If not... Huh??

No they made every single martial class with a identical foundation lacking even subtle differences that grab and strike is a class / character specific ability more distinct in 4e.

They could have listed every single one of those as an ability under the martial classes in 5e. You have to instead hunt for it.

 

[Teemu]

So Yes...

You chose a few powers out of thousands. Is your claim that all 4e powers are samey, all martial at-will attack powers are samey, or that all powers of a single class are samey? Or something else?

 

[Imaro]

No they made every single martial class with a identical foundation lacking even subtle differences that grab and strike is a class / character specific ability more distinct in 4e.

Wait so there's no differences between the foundation of the Rogue class and Fighter class in 5e??

 

[Imaro]

You chose a few powers out of thousands. Is your claim that all 4e powers are samey, all martial at-will attack powers are samey, or that all powers of a single class are samey? Or something else?

Well I chose low level powers from the PHB because that's what the majority of people will play and see (since most groups don't go to high level and don't buy in past the PHB for any edition). And yes I chose 4 from different classes that were similar as an example of why some might feel the powers are samey... but how many would satisfy this nebulous criteria you seem to have created?

EDIT: And just to be clear, my claim is that I can totally understand how the powers of 4e could appear samey to certain groups... dependent on classes played, powers selected and the fact that most groups do not play high level and do not buy beyond the PHB.