D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Minigiant]

You may be hitting the root of things.
It kinda feels like the specification of "powers" is a debate gimmick.
In actual play you don't parse out things like "my class" vs "my class' powers". You just play.

People complain a lot about the endless +3 to a skill feats in 3X. I think that would be the ultimate definition of "samey". Yet I've never heard anyone claim that feats are samey. (As opposed to "New splatbook XYZ is full of feats with nothing new in the bunch". So you don't like the product.) But when actually playing there are plenty of diverse feats to choose from and 3X as a system, doesn't have nearly the equivalent "saminess" reputation as 4E. (YMMV, but as a collective perception, this is true).

Joe plays 4E. To Joe "everything" feels samey. Joe burns out on 4E quickly. Somebody tells Joe that "powers" are not samey. Joe, having not played 4E in month shrugs, it all felt samey to me.
Add to that the fact that there are reasonable arguments that 4E powers are at least a bit more samey (the math, the presentation, etc) and the point becomes so fine that it is meaningless to the real perception of "fun at the table".

Yeah, but in the same vain we had a thread here splitting up the spells to make 5e classes less samey.

Or how in late 3.5, every character was squeezed into 7-10 archetypes because so make feats and spells where straight bad or vastly underpowered.

Sameyness in classes, spells, powers, build, etc all have different priorities based on the makeup of the table members. Which one was important depending on your group.

 

[Oofta]

Did you read my sentence ... nope not a rogue the thief we were talking old D&D, itty bitty effect in combat always better to hide.

Okay ... since there hasn't been a thief class in D&D for several editions I'm going to assume you're talking about the rogue subclass thief. Sorry I wasn't more specific.

The thief rogue in my party is reasonably effective in combat and contributes skills outside of combat. The player also gets to be a support character by using Fast Hands to apply healer kits (she took the healer feat) as a bonus action. So for her it's a win-win-win. Decent at combat, support PC, useful out of combat skills which are quite important in my games.

Is that specific enough for you?

 

[BryonD]

Which one was important depending on your group.

Right. And this seems to be the recurring theme.
(Well, that plus some people find it easy to say it is OK to disagree until they are asked to say it is OK for somebody to disagree with them )

 

[Garthanos]

I think you are missing the point though. Nearly every type of effect you could have in a 4e fighter can be had in a 5e one. Some effects might be greater, some less. Some might not get coupled with damage the same way. But nearly every effect is there.

I did miss your point I grant because it was behind other stuff that kind of left a bad taste.
Conflating the at-will provided by an everyman ability to a class granted at-will is usually bad-form they are lesser and also not part of class distinctiveness you simultaneously mentioned them but excluded often direct analogs from the 4e synopsis.
The 5e Encounter powers you mention are not really encounter they are more like milestone abilities. That infrequency of use is a sand in the bread recipe ie if you have 4 but spread them out over 4 fights because the day is 8 long that is versatile but its still almost all just raw damage damage damage damage damage with a boom once a fight I do something more one vesatile encounter power not 4 encounters (like the fighter weaponmaster strike doing 3 things but only in an encounter power). Frequency that is like the once every other 3 or even 6 fights I got a crit... they barely are a blink.

 

[Garthanos]

The thief rogue in my party is reasonably effective in combat

Sorry it was a sub branching that mentioned the OSR and so yes I agree it is wonderful that the Rogue circa 3e became part of the teamwork of battle instead of a side liner it was what the Yay was about.

I think in 4e a throwback thief should have been in battle a controller fewer spikey damage rogue as that might evoke the original better.

No problem it is easy to see the confusion.

 

[Garthanos]

We stopped thinking about aour story and only though about when it is the best time to unleash encounter and/or daily powers.

The wizard stopped thinking about when it was best to use his spells so interesting. Or is this somehow only a problem when the characters arent the archetype known for it. See I kind of think martial types should be known for something like it as those best in a fight ought to be the most versatile in a fight and really able to flexibly and effectively assume roles needed (note neither 4e or 5e really do that)

And its pretty trivial to decide many encounters (the answer is basically every fight when during the fight may be more particular) so dailies seem what is left and whoo hoo I get 4 total of those over the entire career. But that taking over what you are thinking about all the time really?

 

[Garthanos]

Heal 4e
Heal is linked to Wisdom.
You know how to help someone recover from wounds or debilitating conditions, including disease.
First Aid
Make a Heal check to administer first aid.

• First Aid: Standard action.
  • DC: Varies depending on the task you’re attempting.
  • Use Second Wind: Make a DC 10 Heal check to allow an adjacent character to use his or her second wind without the character having to spend an action. The character doesn’t gain the defense bonuses normally granted by second wind.
  • Stabilize the Dying: Make a DC 15 Heal check to stabilize an adjacent dying character. If you succeed, the character can stop making death saving throws until he or she takes damage. The character’s current hit point total doesn’t change as a result of being stabilized.
  • Grant a Saving Throw: Make a DC 15 Heal check. If you succeed, an adjacent ally can immediately make a saving throw, or the ally gets a +2 bonus to a saving throw at the end of his or her next turn.

Treat Disease
Make a Heal check to treat a character suffering from a disease. Chapter 3 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide has more information about disease.

• Treat Disease: Part of the diseased character’s extended rest. You must attend the character periodically throughout the extended rest, and you make your Heal check when the rest ends.
  • Replaces Endurance: Your Heal check result determines the disease’s effects if the result is higher than the diseased character’s Endurance check result.

And that demonstrates how paltry skills feel in 5e in 4e they were designed to stand alongside powers and spells not always matching them in potency unless via a skill power where they definitely were but sometimes being exactly what you need and not always requiring DMs to decide a bunch (but yes skill challenge mechanics also encouraged their impactul and versatile use via DM agency so no it doesn't replace the DM). Directly defines not just stabilize but bring back to the battle AND further granting very versatile extra condition ending saves.

 

[Minigiant]

Right. And this seems to be the recurring theme.
(Well, that plus some people find it easy to say it is OK to disagree until they are asked to say it is OK for somebody to disagree with them )

Right. Because when someone disagrees, people have to start proving their points and facts. And usually stuff starts becoming illogical.

 

[BryonD]

Right. Because when someone disagrees, people have to start proving their points and facts. And usually stuff starts becoming illogical.

agreed. Which is why it is a good idea to not go around casually saying it is ok to disagree when it might need to be backed up.

 

[FireLance]

Powers are not samey. But after a few levels, classic AEDU became samey in practise.
We stopped thinking about aour story and only though about when it is the best time to unleash encounter and/or daily powers.

I think 4E essentials did a much better job presenting the classes and made them feel different. Also taking away daily and partially encounter powers allowed to focus more on the actual story.

On problem still stayed: combat was too strategic to embed it in a 2-3 hour session of DnD. It made a fun minigame, but that was not what we wanted to do in those few hours.

The common thread I'm seeing here is the primacy of the combat pillar in 4E. It is a fact that A, E, and D are all attack powers, and I can see how a repeated focus on combat over several game sessions can make the play experience seem samey.

So, a perhaps slightly off-topic question that I'd be happy to spin off to another thread if necessary: what can 4E learn fron 5E in terms of diversifying the play experience?