D&D 4E Are powers samey?

Status
Not open for further replies.

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Well, you wouldn't would you? You don't have a host of folks trying to prove that 5e is bad. You'll also note that NO ONE, in this thread has ever actually compared specific powers. Just that powers are samey. The OP demonstrates how different the different powers are, yet, that gets swept under the rug because it doesn't fit the narrative.

I addressed every single one of those powers. Maybe read the thread first before you go for the generally untrue statements?

I mean, does anyone actually think that Tide of Iron (push a target and then take it's space) is the same as Commander's Strike - cause an ally to attack?

Nope. You can pick 2 of the most unique powers from the list - but that doesn't prove what you think it proves.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
My take away has been that it's about PC build (sequence/structure of acquisition of player-side resources) and about recharge rates (so how those resources come back in pacing terms, ingame fiction terms, etc).

Which is to say, it's mostly about the wargamey/boardgamey elements. Not the fiction. At least as best I can tell.

I would add a quasi-quantitative assessment of the uniqueness of the abilities the classes get as well. Class to class 4e powers TYPICALLY weren't that unique from each other. Abilities like reckless attack and action surge and divine smite and uncanny dodge all are extremely different from one another.
 

Hussar

Legend
I addressed every single one of those powers. Maybe read the thread first before you go for the generally untrue statements?



Nope. You can pick 2 of the most unique powers from the list - but that doesn't prove what you think it proves.

Yet, throughout this thread, no specifics have been given. It's just assumed that you are correct and that 4e powers are samey. As soon as any actual examples are brought up, it "doesn't prove what you think it proves".

All cats are black.
((Holds up a white cat))
Mere evidence doesn't prove anything.

:erm:
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Yet, throughout this thread, no specifics have been given. It's just assumed that you are correct and that 4e powers are samey. As soon as any actual examples are brought up, it "doesn't prove what you think it proves".

All cats are black.
((Holds up a white cat))
Mere evidence doesn't prove anything.

:erm:

I see the problem. Samey doesn't mean what you think it means.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
You'll note, @Don Durito, that the only people who use the neologism - samey - are the ones who treat it as a negative. That we have also started using it means that we've simply tried to demonstrate how meaningless the term actually is and how it's only a pejorative. It's no different than video-gamey or board-gamey. At the end of the day, all these words boil down to exactly the same meaning - "I don't like whatever I'm talking about, but, in order to make my personal opinion look like it's based on objective fact so that whatever I'm talking about is BAD, I'll invent this neologism with a completely nebulous meaning to obfuscate and confound any actual attempt at discussion so I don't really have to prove anything at all."

Yes, @Oofta, it really, really is a bad joke.

You do understand the issue there right?

...You are telling other people that it's impossible they ever actually feel anything is samey or video-gamey or board-gamey etc.
 


Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
The other part is rituals

4e more or less formalized the idea of rituals being out of combat magic that uses seperate resources from your in combat magic. 4e exemplified the idea of siloing in D&D.

Your strategic aspect was U powers for time sensitive actions and rituals for major plans.

Then is definitely room for debate regarding the extent to which rituals and U powers cover the full range of strategic options that are available in other editions. Personally, I would argue they do not cover the full range: I think the focus on the tactical layer in 4e necessarily came at the expense of the strategic layer.

Put simply, I think 4e tried to ensure fights were reliably exciting and climatic, and did so by making the balance of each fight independent of the choices (both IC choices and character creation choices) made by the players before initiative is rolled. This required sharply limiting character abilities that could be used strategically to turn encounters into an anticlimax.

For example, in 4e it's much harder than in other editions to get long-duration flight or long-range attacks. Accordingly, it's harder to strategically achieve an insurmountable range and/or mobility advantage over opponents. This has an undoubted benefit for promoting exciting encounters, but also (in my opinion) illustrates how 4e's powers (and rituals) don't cover the same range on the tactical/strategic axis. Personally I can see how those used to a broad range of strategic character abilities might find that the tactical focus of 4e's character abilities feels more "samey".
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
I mentioned something similar in the other thread (I think it was that thread). Consider the following 4e encounter and "sameyness."

* 20 * 20 (squares) chamber that is 6 squares high

* South entrance/egress (3 SQ across), East entrance/egress (3 SQ across), and Northwest entrance/egress (3 SQ across - balcony)

* Balcony is far end of the room over the dais, 20 ft up, overhangs the chamber and is 10 * 10

* NPC (someone important to the PCs) is chained to a table on a stone dais at the far end of the room. They're hooked up to a machine with tubes/fluids/wires/electric current running from several beakers/nodes and they're undergoing a transformation when the combat begins. Of-level, Complexity 1 Skill Challenge (4 Success/v 3 rounds) w/ Move Action economy w/ 3 rounds being strapped to it as the loss condition. Success = NPC lives and is ok. Failure = it animates as an Elite Flesh Golem (Brute) and attacks to the death.

* 4 Lightning Pillars Hazards in the room. Opportunity Action if anyone comes within 5 SQ (Close Burst 5) to Attack Ref for of-level Lightning Damage. At the beginning of each round, they animate 1 Minion (Brute) Flesh Golem (immune to Lightning) at their base (which then acts immediately); Brute w/ Attack + Push 1. The Pillars can be shut-down with a Hard Arcana, Athletics, or Thievery check by an adjacent character (Standard Action). They're set up equidistant and cover a large area (20 % of the primary chamber) so Forced Movement into the Hazards' AoE should be a big thing.

* East entrance (3 SQ wide). Every odd round (1, 3, 5, 7), an Iron Golem (Standard Brute w/ a Standard Attack + Push 2 and a Minor Action Attack vs Fort; Fling - Slide 3 SQ) enters room until 4 golems have entered.

* Solo Mad Scientist can teleport from runed square on balcony to adjacent to any of the 4 (active - if destroyed he cannot) Lightning Pillars and the machine on the dais as a Move Action. He can Move back to balcony same way.

Minor Action to animate a Flesh Golem Minion when w/in the Lightning Pillar area.
Suite of Standard Attacks featuring:
Ranged 20 (so basically the whole room) vs Ref Lightning damage+ Slide 3 toward a Lightning Pillar.
Ranged 10 Area Burst 1 - Stun PCs (vs Will) + either heals an Iron Golem 1/4 HP or reanimates a destroyed Iron Golem in the AoE (reanimates w/ Bloodied HPs)
Aura 3 SQ difficult terrain due to waves of thunder (if you start your turn in Aura, Attack vs Will - Slide 3 and either attack adjacent Ally or Stunned; Miss is just Slide 3).
Action Recovery (get rid of negative status).




Just those battlefield dynamics alone will ensure:

a) The fight won't play out like anything approximating the same, even if you instantiated it 5 times with the same group.

b) Whether the fight features a Fighter/Bladesinger/Avenger/Warlord or Warden/Warlock/Invoker/Rogue...each PC is going to have extremely meaningful (impactful and interesting) decisions and a decision-tree that features a menu of (at least) 3-4 diverse approaches in each and every round. There won't be an obvious, optimal choice for anyone at the starting point of combat and there certainly won't be an obvious, optimal choice as the situation (dynamically) progresses.

I don't even need to get into the extreme build diversity possible between these two class set-ups to absolutely ensure that.

I guarantee, if I took any group of 4 ENWorlders, gave them premades, ran them through that combat...nothing would feel "samey" round by round for each character, round by round between each character, and certainly not from one fight to the next.

The encounter you've described is not one that would fit well in my preferred playstyle, either as a player or as a DM. I personally prefer organic encounters that arise as a result of the PCs' strategic choices, so a pre-planned encounter with scripted features like the ones you describe wouldn't really fit. (And from the PC standpoint, in the playstyle I prefer, fighting the enemy on their home turf is usually a last resort, and indicates the PCs have lost the strategic initiative.)

I can definitely see how the encounter you've described would emphasize the differences between powers in 4e. There is a lot going on at the tactical level, and that matters for which power is most useful at any given moment, so careful round-by-round selection of the order in which to use each power is key.

I can also see, however, how encounters in other styles might de-emphasize the differences between 4e powers. If the PCs elect to attack at maximum range, for (a very simple) example, many of the movement-related special effects of 4e powers may be irrelevant. (E.g. pushing a target 3 squares may be useless at long range if it doesn't change the target's ability to reach full cover on its turn). When encounter specifics cause the special effects of 4e powers to be less relevant, the practical differences between 4e powers start to blur.

I think it's reasonable to conclude that the perceived degree of "samey-ness" in 4e powers may depend on the preferred encounter style of the observer.

As an additional complication caused by differing playstyles, I note that your example encounter appears to assume that differences between powers should be evaluated based on their affect on an encounter after initiative is rolled. In playstyles that instead emphasize the strategic layer of D&D, the relevant question may instead be to what extent 4e powers differ in their ability to influence, before initiative is rolled, how, where, when, and whether an encounter takes place.

From the perspective of that kind of playstyle, it may be highly relevant to perceptions of "sameyness" that 4e arguably lacks the range of character abilities found in other editions that would permit, for example, retrieving the NPC in your example encounter without engaging in combat at all. For those who prefer such playstyles, the recurring choice of what order in which to use one's powers may seem repetitive from encounter to encounter, even if all such encounters are designed, like your example, to emphasize the differences between powers.
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
also maybe I missed it but can we talk about Star Wars Saga Edition? that was basically a dry run for 4e and much more well received by the community as a whole. like I knew at least one guy who LOVED Saga edition despite "needing miniatures" but absolutely hated 4e for some reason, and I feel like it part of it was not trying to package all it's classes the same way.

I love SWSE despite not being particularly fond of 4e. The systems share a lot conceptually (e.g. every class is on a unified structural framework), so it's a valid question as to why I like one and don't like the other. For me I think the key differences that influence my differing opinions on the two systems are as follows:
  1. In SWSE the Force uses a unique* mechanical system distinct from mundane abilities, whereas in 4e magical and mundane abilities are both included in the Powers mechanical system and the rituals/martial practices mechanical system. (*The mechanical system for the Force was re-used for advanced piloting manuvers in a later sourcebook, so it's not totally unique. Notably, piloting manuvers are one of my least-favorite aspects of SWSE.)
  2. In SWSE, talents and feats included a diverse range of activated and passive abilities spread across both combat and non-combat pillars. By contrast, 4e powers are almost exclusively activated and combat-focused. 4e's Feats and Rituals make up some of the difference, but (in my opinion) not all of it.
  3. SWSE includes more abilities that fundamentally change how a character works than can be found in 4e. Example include substituting one skill for another, changing attribute dependencies, or entirely removing restrictions on how skills can be used. 4e had multiclassing feats, but substituting one power for another doesn't feel like the same level of fundamental impact to me. This makes character building in SWSE feel nuanced to me in a way that 4e's selection of feats and powers does not.
  4. (Not relevant to the current discussion, but included here for completeness.) SWSE had 3e-style multiclassing and 4e did not. Since I love 3e-style multiclassing, that's a big win for SWSE in my book.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Then is definitely room for debate regarding the extent to which rituals and U powers cover the full range of strategic options that are available in other editions. Personally, I would argue they do not cover the full range: I think the focus on the tactical layer in 4e necessarily came at the expense of the strategic layer.

I agree with this to a point. But it wwas mostly a book and space issue.
4e mostly took all the old social and exploration spells that were more than a flat bonus and turned them into a ritual. The issue was that they didn't do all of them.
  • Several key spells and actions weren't added until the PHB2 or PHB3.
  • Many were missing
  • there were no martial rituals for the complex nonmagical actions
  • many rituals were nerfed versions of past versions of spells
  • many U powers were just stat buffs and not old school "save or win" spell

Put simply, I think 4e tried to ensure fights were reliably exciting and climatic, and did so by making the balance of each fight independent of the choices (both IC choices and character creation choices) made by the players before initiative is rolled. This required sharply limiting character abilities that could be used strategically to turn encounters into an anticlimax.

Nah. This is false. Most of this comes out of DM skill and allowance. You can set up an ambush the same in 4e and in 3e, 2e, or 1e. It just costs a lot more in gp if you use magic. A rogue could pick off kobolds one by one the same way as 3e, 2e, or 1e by attacking them in dark corners alone.

Theeere were no rules against that. The problem was that many DMs and player parties did not want to break the set pieces that 4e provided and helped craft. People felt like they had to follow the structure more in 4e because it provided a balanced one both tactically and strategetically.

For example, in 4e it's much harder than in other editions to get long-duration flight or long-range attacks. Accordingly, it's harder to strategically achieve an insurmountable range and/or mobility advantage over opponents. This has an undoubted benefit for promoting exciting encounters, but also (in my opinion) illustrates how 4e's powers (and rituals) don't cover the same range on the tactical/strategic axis. Personally I can see how those used to a broad range of strategic character abilities might find that the tactical focus of 4e's character abilities feels more "samey".

This is true. 4e nerfed a lot of old edition options. You couldn't fly whereever. Teleports were rigid. Charms where rigid. Many spells didnot make it in as rituals or were downgraded.

The same options were there but they were nerfed, downgraded, or harder. So many players didn't use them. So they stuck with just skill checks and that could easily feel samey.

But thatis no different from 3e and 2e where Spells >Skills and you cast the same spells over and over and over because the best way to beat something was to cast a spell or put out a scroll. Often it was the only way because "Magic must defeat magic".

So again it's all personal tone preference.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top