D&D 5E Are proficiency swaps too strong for some races?

[ScuroNotte]

You can swap out armor or a weapon for a weapon or tool. In the example, an elf can swap a long sword for a tool as per page 8. So if a player playing an Elf martial character who already gains martial weapons through the class, can swap the 4 weapons (longsword, shortsword, shortbow, longbow) for 4 tools. Or a martial Mountain Dwarf character can exchange 4 weapons and 2 armor proficiencies for 6 tools.
Or am I over reacting.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

How does this make sense? Were mountain dwarfs (significantly) overpowered before? If you chose a caster to benefit from the armour, the strength bonus was mostly wasted, if you chose martial to benefit from the strength, the armour proficiency was wasted. That was good balancing. The issue only arises due the swapping, as it breaks this balance.

Because the other races didn't get that. It might have been good balancing if the other races were the same, but that didn't happen. Gnomes, Halflings, Bugbears, and the majority of other races get all of the benefits of being their race without any features being wasted. If there's a disparity between how the majority of the races are balanced and one or two races, that race is the problem, not the system that allows them to switch around their features.

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm not skipping that, I agree it is bonkers now. It worked fine before Tasha though. All features not being useful at one was a feature, not a bug.

Broken as designed is a well known phrase that usually only applies to development with silliness like

Spoiler: this

Coincidentally, "it's a feature not a bug" is the definition of a specific type of bug. TCoE gives it a new impact rating that makes a fix something that can no longer be ignored.

The fact that the impact was not especially noticeable as a significant issue doesn't change the fact that it was a bug & poorly designed from the start. 5e is rife with these sort of poor design choices that make changing the system difficult for a gm wanting to tweak things as they could in previous versions or to import cut systems from those old versions... the notable difference is that wotc rather than some random gm is the one who inadvertently caused a serious balance problem by making a change that should have been ok

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Because the other races didn't get that. It might have been good balancing if the other races were the same, but that didn't happen. Gnomes, Halflings, Bugbears, and the majority of other races get all of the benefits of being their race without any features being wasted. If there's a disparity between how the majority of the races are balanced and one or two races, that race is the problem, not the system that allows them to switch around their features.

Many races (before Tasha's) have 'wasted' features. Ability bonuses that only really useful for certain classes, some token cantrips that don't much matter for casters who already get plenty, weapon proficiencies that are wasted on martials etc. And yes, on mountain dwarves this was pretty stark, and to balance it they got more stuff in total than many others. Your argument really doesn't make any sense to me, I don't even understand whether you think pre-Tasha mountain dwarves were under or overpowered...

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The fact that the impact was not especially noticeable as a significant issue doesn't change the fact that it was a bug & poorly designed from the start.

Why? What is the actual problem? Mountain dwarves offered something somewhat useful pretty much regardless of which class you chose without offering so much for any one class that they became an obvious choice for it. How on Earth is that poor design?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Your argument really doesn't make any sense to me

Why? What is the actual problem? Mountain dwarves offered something somewhat useful pretty much regardless of which class you chose without offering so much for any one class that they became an obvious choice for it. How on Earth is that poor design?

I guess we're not going to convince you. Just because something is a problem now doesn't mean that it wasn't designed in a problematic way before.

I don't even understand whether you think pre-Tasha mountain dwarves were under or overpowered...

I don't think the race was specifically either, but it doesn't really matter. They were unbalanced when compared to the other races. Whether they were better or worse wasn't a huge issue before Tasha's.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I guess we're not going to convince you.

Well, not this way you aren't.

Just because something is a problem now doesn't mean that it wasn't designed in a problematic way before.

You have not explained what the problem was.

I don't think the race was specifically either, but it doesn't really matter. They were unbalanced when compared to the other races. Whether they were better or worse wasn't a huge issue before Tasha's.

So you don't know whether they were underpowered or overpowered but there was some balance issue that you're unable to articulate?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

You have not explained what the problem was.

The problem is that they were fine the way they worked before because it wasn't OP to give them all the features that they had. The armor and weapon proficiency was balanced out by the +2 to Strength, as the people who wanted the armor proficiency probably didn't want the strength bonus, and the people who wanted the amazing bonus to Strength didn't want the armor and weapon proficiency, because they already had that. And that was fine, that was balanced in most circumstances, with most features only being useful to certain people and not to others.

That would not be an issue if both of the following things were true:

1. All races were balanced like that.
2. No feature that allowed you to switch these previously useless proficiencies or ability score bonuses existed.

Number 1 was never the case, there were very few races balanced the same way, decreasingly as many as the years went on. Those few races that were partially balanced this way were not as skewed to this way of balancing as the Mountain Dwarf was. As you stated, this wasn't really an issue before, the features mostly balanced each other out. However, Number 2 caused this discrepancy to become an issue.

Now, any race can switch any of their proficiencies for any other proficiency that WotC says is "equivalent." While this is not an issue for the races that are not balanced in the "ignore half this race's features to get the thing you want"-way that the Mountain Dwarf was balanced around, but it is for the Mountain Dwarf and other races. Basically, it would not be an issue to switch around your proficiencies if the proficiencies were all intended to count for all characters of the same race.

The issue is not the new rule as much as it is the disparity between how a Halfling or Shifter is balanced between how a Mountain Dwarf is balanced. The discrepancy is the issue, not the new ruleset.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The problem is that they were fine the way they worked before because it wasn't OP to give them all the features that they had. The armor and weapon proficiency was balanced out by the +2 to Strength, as the people who wanted the armor proficiency probably didn't want the strength bonus, and the people who wanted the amazing bonus to Strength didn't want the armor and weapon proficiency, because they already had that. And that was fine, that was balanced in most circumstances, with most features only being useful to certain people and not to others.

That would not be an issue if both of the following things were true:

1. All races were balanced like that.
2. No feature that allowed you to switch these previously useless proficiencies or ability score bonuses existed.

Number 1 was never the case, there were very few races balanced the same way, decreasingly as many as the years went on. Those few races that were partially balanced this way were not as skewed to this way of balancing as the Mountain Dwarf was. As you stated, this wasn't really an issue before, the features mostly balanced each other out. However, Number 2 caused this discrepancy to become an issue.

Now, any race can switch any of their proficiencies for any other proficiency that WotC says is "equivalent." While this is not an issue for the races that are not balanced in the "ignore half this race's features to get the thing you want"-way that the Mountain Dwarf was balanced around, but it is for the Mountain Dwarf and other races. Basically, it would not be an issue to switch around your proficiencies if the proficiencies were all intended to count for all characters of the same race.

The issue is not the new rule as much as it is the disparity between how a Halfling or Shifter is balanced between how a Mountain Dwarf is balanced. The discrepancy is the issue, not the new ruleset.

If it was balanced before the new rule and was not an issue, then obviously the new rule is the problem! It is nonsensical to claim otherwise.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

If it was balanced before the new rule and was not an issue, then obviously the new rule is the problem! It is nonsensical to claim otherwise.

No, because it's only an issue for the races that are balanced differently from the standard race, not for the general race. Gnomes and Halflings are not unbalanced due to this rule, but Mountain Dwarves are. Therefore, the issue isn't the rule, it's the race.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

No, because it's only an issue for the races that are balanced differently from the standard race, not for the general race. Gnomes and Halflings are not unbalanced due to this rule, but Mountain Dwarves are. Therefore, the issue isn't the rule, it's the race.

That's insane. When the designers wrote the original mountain dwarf rules, they had not idea that in several years time a rule for altering the races would exist. They wrote a race that was balanced and worked well. However, when the designer's wrote the rule in Tasha's they full well knew what sort of races the game contained. Nevertheless they wrote a rule that broke the balance.