Are ranged rangers better than melee ones?

[Stalker0]

Can you cite the page # for this reference?

pg. 105-112. Every ranged ranger power uses dex for attack and damage, and its specified as "ranged" when you have a power that could be used with TWF or with ranged.

 

[bardolph]

Every ranged attack power for a ranger has 'Dex vs X', as such, the thrown weapon bonuses would be effectively useless. A ranger does IMO benefit more from carrying around a bow instead of a throwing weapon to use while in Melee.

Yes, but heavy thrown weapons are melee weapons, even when thrown. Why wouldn't that count as a "melee" attack at 5 squares away?

 

[Agrias Oaks]

Yes, but heavy thrown weapons are melee weapons, even when thrown. Why wouldn't that count as a "melee" attack at 5 squares away?

The powers are specified as a ranged weapon. You are throwing them. Ergo, they count as ranged powers and you hit with dex instead of str since thats how the power works. It'd be like allowing you to use dex on melee powers, it just don't work for a rangers attacks.

 

[Cadfan]

The powers are specified as a ranged weapon. You are throwing them. Ergo, they count as ranged powers and you hit with dex instead of str since thats how the power works. It'd be like allowing you to use dex on melee powers, it just don't work for a rangers attacks.

Actually, I'm not sure that an attack with a throwable melee weapon counts as an attack using a ranged weapon. "Ranged weapon" is a descriptor on the weapon itself. Things like hand axes do not have that descriptor. Therefore, you flat out can't use them with ranger powers that require a ranged weapon.

 

[Ander00]

Custserv has ruled similarly I belive, but in my personal opinion, that way lies madness (shuriken would then be the only "ranged" thrown weapons).

Also:

A basic attack with a ranged weapon is usually a Dexterity attack, unless the weapon you're using has the heavy thrown property.

Would make more sense if you consider thrown weapons to be ranged weapons, when thrown.


cheers

 

[Gloombunny]

Page 270 specifically describes using thrown weapons to make ranged attacks.

The "ranged weapon" keyword on powers is a subset of the "ranged" keyword, telling you that the range is based on the weapon you're using. It doesn't mean anything about what kind of weapon you use. It "allows you to attack a target within your weapon's range" (p. 56), as given in the weapons table. Thrown weapons have a range, so that keyword applies to them.

Oh, and the description of the "heavy thrown" property on page 216 mentions only ranged basic attacks and says nothing about overriding the attribute used for any powers.

 

[jaldaen]

Oh, and the description of the "heavy thrown" property on page 216 mentions only ranged basic attacks and says nothing about overriding the attribute used for any powers.

This is the reference that rules them all... at least for this debate

 

[Puggins]

Couple of points on TWF's behalf:

(1) The Heavy Armor Ranger is viable, from what I can see, and is easily the most damaging build of all rangers assuming that it goes Pit Fighter/Demigod. 24 wisdom = +7 damage on all attacks, both main hand and off hand. Two-weapon rend gives you three opportunities to score that bonus damage, and, with demigod, it essentially becomes your go-to at-will.

(2) The Dex-based TWF/Pit fighter. isn't THAT far behind the Heavy Armor Ranger in terms of damage, and it's still well ahead of Archers.

(3) The MAD of TWF is overstated.

#3 deserves some elaboration:

a. Yes you need three attributes, but none of the three overlap- you'll be improving every save as you raise your three scores.

b. The drastic increase in point cost for 17/18 mean that a three-attribute character is only slightly behind a two-attribute character.

Take this build, using standard point buy.

Elf Ranger
Start -> End Stat.
Str 16 -> 24 (+7)
Dex 17 -> 22 (+6)
Con 13 -> 15
Int 8 -> 10
Wis 15 -> 20 (+5)
Cha 10 -> 12

Let's look at what the Archer can do.

Build 1, distributing stats.
Str 10 -> 12
Dex 18 -> 26 (+8)
Con 13 -> 15 (+2)
Int 9 -> 11
Wis 18 -> 26 (+8)
Cha 10 -> 12

In this build, the archer will have a +1 to hit/dmg, +3 to his will save and some effects, +1 to AC and reflex (remember TW defense) and a -5 to his fortitude save compared to the TWF.

Build 2, concentrating.
Str 10 -> 12
Dex 20 -> 28 (+9)
Con 13 -> 15 (+2)
Int 9 -> 11
Wis 12 -> 20 (+5)
Cha 10 -> 12

In this build, the archer will have a +2 to hit/dmg, +2 to AC/Ref and a -5 to his fortitude save.

The advantages are simply underwhelming, considering the bonuses the TWF guy gets with weapon feats, ability with (and competence in) opportunity attacks, lack of vulnerability to OAs (though admittedly ranger utilities make up for this) and all those cool interrupt attacks.

 

[toxicspirit]

I prefer the following build for an (elven) Archer-Ranger ...

Str 10 -> 12
Con 11 -> 13
Dex 20 -> 28 (+9)
Int 10 -> 12
Wis 16 -> 24 (+7)
Cha 8 -> 10

+ Demigod bonuses in Dexterity and Wisdom.

 

[Puggins]

I prefer the following build for an (elven) Archer-Ranger ...

Str 10 -> 12
Con 11 -> 13
Dex 20 -> 28 (+9)
Int 10 -> 12
Wis 16 -> 24 (+7)
Cha 8 -> 10

+ Demigod bonuses in Dexterity and Wisdom.

The Wis bonus was a mistake in my original post- you're right, this is definitely better in terms of wis, though it does sacrifice one additional fort defense- something that most archers would be willing to do.

Expanding upon this, let's look at the final bonuses for this build vs. my proposed TWF build.

Final bonuses, after demigod:

TWF: Str 26 (+8) - Dex 24 (+7) - Will 22 (+6)
ARC: Con 15 (+2) - Dex 30 (+10) - Will 26 (+8)

The across-the-board bonuses given by paragon/epic advances and demigod help TWF keep pace, though Archery concentrates on the ranger's prime attributes.

TWF is using bastard swords and has all relevant feats, archer has longbow and also has all relevant feats.

Defenses, assuming +6 hide armor, +6 amulet:
TWF: AC 39, Fort 39, Ref 39, Will 37
ARC: AC 41, Fort 33, Ref 41, Will 39

This is essentially a wash, IMO. Archery has edges in three of them, but it completely cedes one defense in order to help the other three.

Basic Attacks (which will hardly ever be used, yes) assuming +6 weapons. No Paragon paths added.
TWF: +32 (+15 base, +6 weapon, +8 Str, +3 prof), crit on 19+, 1d10 + 15 damage
ARC: +34 (+15 base, +6 weapon, +10 Dex, +3 prof), 1d10 + 16 damage

The difference here is pretty insignificant, in my opinion, but YMMV. Heavy blade has more feats that do spiffy stuff, and power attack is available.

Of course, TWF is much more feat-intensive, which will probably be a factor once a generous number of feats are available. It simply isn't an issue currently, though.