Are rogues marginalized by magic?

[Psion]

Yes it can. But the rogue can be countered too. Arguably skills are as easy to counter as magic (the unpickable lock, the unclimable wall, the room with no hiding places, the "immune to diplomacy" guard, etc.) so saying magic can be countered isn't very meaningful.

So, if you contrive to screw the rogue, the rogue is screwed?

This seems a trivial observation to me.

The GMs powers are limitless, but the countermeasures to magic are a pretty standard part of spell lists and creature powers. If you as the GM or adventure designer put rogue-screwers in, that's on you.

 

[Hussar]

Racoffin - I believe that's the heart of the issue. If you have to "Improvise, Adapt and Overcome", then there is something there causing that. In other words, the problem does exist. Whether you can work around the problem is not the question.

 

[Mallus]

Not sure what that snarkiness is all about.

It's not snarkiness, it's wry humor!

In addition, rogues (as well as any other class) can and should find a way to matter.

My point was that this can be fairly difficult, especially as and all but requires the DM and other players to lend a hand. So it's not simply a matter of a player not allowing themselves to be marginalized...

 

[Remathilis]

If you have to talk to the other player (who's not playing a rogue) that he's stepping on your toes - you've already admitted that there's a problem.

And if your desperately looking for a niche because the one you want is filled by someone not even playing your class (who is filling it as a side benefit to also doing his thing) - perhaps there's a problem?

And one of the best "bards" I ever saw played was a rogue2/sorc4/virtuoso10. He could do things a bard 16 WISHED he could.

Blame it on the PrC, blame it on the PC, but there is no "niche" protection when magic can do everything a mundane can do, better, and with no cost to the caster beyond a charge or spell slot.

(BTW: a wizard player joked about making a Staff of Roguedom: Knock, Imp. Invisibility, Spider Climb, Comp Lang, Silence, Find Traps. He even offered to name it after my rogue in his honor. After I told him what my rogue would do with that staff while the wizard was sleeping, he decided to opt to make a staff of power instead.)

 

[Mort]

So, if you contrive to screw the rogue, the rogue is screwed?

This seems a trivial observation to me.

The GMs powers are limitless, but the countermeasures to magic are a pretty standard part of spell lists and creature powers. If you as the GM or adventure designer put rogue-screwers in, that's on you.

Huh?

When someone wants to protect their stuff - they take measures to protect their stuff, when someone wants to protect information they take measures to protect information. I guess I [edit]should not [edit] have gone the "impossible" route, "very difficult" is often enough to deter a rogue:

getting the best lock you can afford - standard

hard to climb walls (whether smooth, or slippery or sticky) - fairly standard

open nearly impossible to sneak through areas before important buildings - standard

good help - hard to find, but standard

All I'm saying is it's not that hard to "counter against the rogue" and most of the counters are easier and usually less expensive than countering against magic.

 

[apoptosis]

Depends the system.

3.5 probably yes since wands of X which can trump most skills are so easy to obtain.

Earlier versions where spell slots are a lot more sacred and I would say no. That in individual instances yes but over the course of a story, no.

Personally I think magic should have greater scope (effectiveness) than mundane skills but with much higher costs, price, risk to offset it. Unfortunately spells slots are not much of a price unless they are very limited (this includes magic items in the equation).

If I had to make a choice though, I would 100% want magic to remain potent.

In terms of thieves, I actually wonder sometimes if a thief should even be considered a normal character class or archetype anymore in a game that has the D&D type meme.
They seem to have had so many issues (magic trumping, initially they lacked combat prowess, then their specific combat abilities were very vulnerable to so many factors).
It seems it as an archetype has somewhat disappeared in 4E even (it is not really a 'rogue' as much as a a well...striker ).

While I love stories with thieves maybe they just don't mix well with stories with magic (at least player controlled potent magic). Though I will say it has never been a problem in games i have been involved in, there are enough accounts where there have been issues that it is obviously something that challenges games.

Controlling the use of magic and having magic remain potent has always been a delicate issue. Pretty much all ways of dealing with it have certain issues and you really have to decide what is most important to your game (a pretty obvious statement I know)

 

[Psion]

getting the best lock you can afford - standard

hard to climb walls (whether smooth, or slippery or sticky) - fairly standard

open nearly impossible to sneak through areas before important buildings - standard

good help - hard to find, but standard

Show me where these are in the book? I think you'll have a good bit of trouble. Things that are in the book are standard. Things like dispel magic, detect magic, anti-magic shell.

Sure you can make slippery walls pretty reasonably. But that's pretty much the DMs realm, and if the DM is making things unassailable by skills, that is the DM's (or adventure designer's) fault.

Should it be difficult/tasking? Absolutely.

All I'm saying is it's not that hard to "counter against the rogue" and most of the counters are easier and usually less expensive than countering against magic.

And that's why rogues don't work in your game.

 

[AllisterH]

Psion, I'm not sure the argument that magic can be countered is very valid....

Magic counters magic but magic ALSO counters skills.

I think for many DMs the "problem" is that any encounter where you have magic being nullified by magic, it would ALSO reasonably counter SKILLS.

As an aside, it should be noted that ORIGINALLY, the game was fighting man, magic user and cleric.

Thieves were added AFTER the spell system had been created.

 

[Mort]

And that's why rogues don't work in your game.

You seem to hate it and take it awfully personally when someone ascribes a general message board comment and thinks they understand your game - maybe you shouldn't do it to others? I'm talking about the general issue of magic impinging on rogues.

My game works better because I understand there are problems. If someone really wants to make a rogue I make sure they have important and useful things to do - both in the party and individually. But the fact that I have to take any special measures at all is a flaw not a feature - for example most published modules/adventures don't.

 

[renau1g]

Although any rogue worth his salt has magic items on him right? So detect magic is just as effective against him. Once he's detected a simple Glitterdust renders him visible, then it's a simple hold person spell against his weak will save and that's the end of that problem. Or Disintegrate him and use mage hand to clean up the dust left behind .