Are rogues marginalized by magic?

[Jhaelen]

In my games magic never replaced the rogue. Sure, it can do what a rogue does but a rogue does it better with less resources spent.

Well, in my games magic never replaced the rogue either. But that was only because I consciously put in stuff for him to do _and_ the other players decided not to make him obsolete by stepping on his toes.

They had no trouble at all, though, to make up for his absence when he couldn't make it to a session.

The spell system does a _very_ good job of marginalizing the skill system in 3E.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Although any rogue worth his salt has magic items on him right? So detect magic is just as effective against him. Once he's detected a simple Glitterdust renders him visible, then it's a simple hold person spell against his weak will save and that's the end of that problem. Or Disintegrate him and use mage hand to clean up the dust left behind .

So, let me get this straight. Rogues aren't marginalized because they can use magic?

Hmm, where did they get the magic?

 

[DM-Rocco]

In my games magic never replaced the rogue. Sure, it can do what a rogue does but a rogue does it better with less resources spent.

It doesn't, usually, in mine either. However, I think if you take the core rules from any edition (well, I don't know enough about 4e to make that claim for it) that you will find magic does become the great equalizer. Your individual tastes as a DM and/or player aside, it is hard to say otherwise.

Of course, the DM can alter things to make this not so. In Robillard's Tale, the campaign narrative in our magazine, Robillard is a rogue and he is not marginalized by magic because the world is magic light. In addition to that, the DM introduced a class, a wizard of sorts that was based with the spells from Monte Cooks Arcana Unearthed. The shear number of skill boosting spells made the rogue obsolete and the DM changed the spell list to balance the game and the PCs. Otherwise, I was simply playing an underpowered fighter.

Note: for those of you who have read Robillard’s Tale vol 1 you know that he is more of a combat rogue so the comparison might not be as valid, but it still applies.

 

[Voadam]

I disagree.

There is a magic spell that will do anything a rogue can do and it can do it better. How useful is a rogue when you can cast a find traps spell?

Find traps?

Find Traps
Divination
Level: Clr 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level

You gain intuitive insight into the workings of traps. You can use the Search skill to detect traps just as a rogue can. In addition, you gain an insight bonus equal to one-half your caster level (maximum +10) on Search checks made to find traps while the spell is in effect.

Note that find traps grants no ability to disable the traps that you may find.

Good luck with that half level search check Mr. Cleric compared to a rogue who can have level +3 before int bonus or skill feats or masterwork tools.

 

[Voadam]

Are rogues in 3.5 marginalized by magic? In other words do spells infringe on the rogues role in the party? Please excuse the obvious typo i(should be marginalized) in the poll.

I see their party role as strikers to use the 4e term. Medium squishy high damage mobile combatants.

I see rogues as marginalized by oozes, plants, undead, constructs, elementals, fortification armor, and high ACs at lower levels, not by spells.

Secondarily they can be great trapfinders or face men or perception guards or stealth agents or backup magic-users or a few other roles depending on their skill choices.

I know that my rogue in the Ptolus game I play in here is not really known for any of his skill based secondary roles, his role in the party that is tied to class is diving into melee combat. His primary role in the party is as a foul mouthed belligerant malicious character, which he could do with any class.

 

[wally]

I have seen this argument come up before, and it was a bit of an eye opener as I haven't seen this in any game I participated in, but others have.

I think the real issue is what type of game is the DM running? If the spellcaster that wants to be the whole party is given the time to rest after blowing all his spells regardless of what is going on in the game world, then it can become very easy for them to overshadow everybody else.

It can also be covered by the other characters. If they are always stopping to rest after each combat or encounter so the spellcaster can refresh and recharge, then they are also empowering the attitude.

In the games I have played in and run, the spellcasters have recognized the strengths of their companions and have allowed them to handle situations that catered to their speciality rather than to hog to spotlight and be the one man party.

It really is a play style rather than ruleset. The rules don't state that a party has to rest after every combat to allow spellcasters to recharge, so they can continue blowing their most powerful spells every time the have a fight. The rules also don't state anything about how a spellcaster can take all the spells he needs to do everything for the party rather than allowing the party to do things themselves.

These things can happen though if that is the game that the group is playing.

-wally

 

[DM-Rocco]

Find traps?



Good luck with that half level search check Mr. Cleric compared to a rogue who can have level +3 before int bonus or skill feats or masterwork tools.

Depends on the edition. The question was if magic marginalized the rogue, not edition 3.5 or higher magic made the rogue weaker.

From the 1st edition AD&D players handbook:

Find Traps (divination)
Level:2
Range: 3"
Duration: 3 turns
Area of Effect: 1" path
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 5 segments
Saving Throw: None

Explanation/Description: When a cleric casts a find traps spell, all traps-concealed normally or magically- of magical or mechanical nature become visible to him or her. Note that this spell is directional, and the caster must face the desired direction in order to determine if a trap is laid in that particular direction.

So, yes, if you are talking about a 3.5 cleric, yes, it is weaker, but if you are talking about a 1st edition AD&D cleric, magic blows away any god-like rogue you can put in front of them and all at 3rd level.

 

[Voadam]

Depends on the edition. The question was if magic marginalized the rogue, not edition 3.5 or higher magic made the rogue weaker.

From the 1st edition AD&D players handbook:

Find Traps (divination)
Level:2
Range: 3"
Duration: 3 turns
Area of Effect: 1" path
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 5 segments
Saving Throw: None

Explanation/Description: When a cleric casts a find traps spell, all traps-concealed normally or magically- of magical or mechanical nature become visible to him or her. Note that this spell is directional, and the caster must face the desired direction in order to determine if a trap is laid in that particular direction.

So, yes, if you are talking about a 3.5 cleric, yes, it is weaker, but if you are talking about a 1st edition AD&D cleric, magic blows away any god-like rogue you can put in front of them and all at 3rd level.

I suggest you re-read the first post. It actually does ask specifically whether 3.5 rogues are marginalized by spells and not rogues in general across multiple editions of D&D.

Are rogues in 3.5 marginalized by magic? In other words do spells infringe on the rogues role in the party? Please excuse the obvious typo i(should be marginalized) in the poll.

Rogues did not even show up as a term until 2e.

 

[Mort]

I have seen this argument come up before, and it was a bit of an eye opener as I haven't seen this in any game I participated in, but others have.

I think the real issue is what type of game is the DM running? If the spellcaster that wants to be the whole party is given the time to rest after blowing all his spells regardless of what is going on in the game world, then it can become very easy for them to overshadow everybody else.

It can also be covered by the other characters. If they are always stopping to rest after each combat or encounter so the spellcaster can refresh and recharge, then they are also empowering the attitude.

In the games I have played in and run, the spellcasters have recognized the strengths of their companions and have allowed them to handle situations that catered to their speciality rather than to hog to spotlight and be the one man party.

It really is a play style rather than ruleset. The rules don't state that a party has to rest after every combat to allow spellcasters to recharge, so they can continue blowing their most powerful spells every time the have a fight. The rules also don't state anything about how a spellcaster can take all the spells he needs to do everything for the party rather than allowing the party to do things themselves.

These things can happen though if that is the game that the group is playing.

-wally

But the rules set enables the play style. There is something wrong if 1 class even can marginalize another, whether the player chooses to is really besides the point. And it's a 1 way street; the wizard can take on and or fill in for the rogue if necessary and with proper scrolls/ wands etc. still have plenty of firepower/spellpower to fullfil other functions. The rogue cannot fill the role of the wizard except on a temporary very expensive basis (and even then only if he chose to max UMD).

 

[wally]

But the rules set enables the play style. There is something wrong if 1 class even can marginalize another, whether the player chooses to is really besides the point. And it's a 1 way street; the wizard can take on and or fill in for the rogue if necessary and with proper scrolls/ wands etc. still have plenty of firepower/spellpower to fullfil other functions. The rogue cannot fill the role of the wizard except on a temporary very expensive basis (and even then only if he chose to max UMD).

Except with the proper scrolls and wands, the rogue can fill in for the wizard as well.

-wally