Are Summon Monster Spells Underpowered(and how would you fix it?)
- Thread starter Merlion
- Start date
EricNoah
Adventurer
I think they are a little weak -- the creature you can summon with your strongest spell is usually not strong enough to be an effective combatant for the challenges that character would be expected to face.
I think longer durations might help, as you've described them; I also think maybe there should be a way to scale each specific summoning spell upwards as well as downwards (you know, how you can summon 1d3 of one type or 1 of another type). Not sure exactly how it would work...
I think longer durations might help, as you've described them; I also think maybe there should be a way to scale each specific summoning spell upwards as well as downwards (you know, how you can summon 1d3 of one type or 1 of another type). Not sure exactly how it would work...
A recent Dragon had a great article on variants to the Summoning Mechanic. Our group uses these rules exclusively now. The new rules base Summon Monster spells exclusively on CR.
Elementals (since they have tons of HD and DR to boot) are considered two CR higher than comparable monsters.
The chart, IIRC, goes something like this:
SM IX CR 12-13
SM VIII CR 10-11
SM VII CR 8-9
SM VI CR 6-7
SM V CR 5
SM IV CR 4
SM III CR 3
SM II CR 2
SM I CR 1
Astral Devas have been removed (CR 14), but otherwise monsters have been bumped up or down -- Rakshasas, for instance are now on SMVII (CR 9).
The article also talks about slapping on templates including celestial, fiendish and all the ones in the MotP. Also, it has variant rules in case the DM or players think the ability to select so many templates is too powerful.
Finally, there are guidelines for Summon Nature's Ally as well.
All in all, a great article and worth picking up.
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To answer your question, I think that the original Summon Monster series of spells is quite underpowered.
Elementals (since they have tons of HD and DR to boot) are considered two CR higher than comparable monsters.
The chart, IIRC, goes something like this:
SM IX CR 12-13
SM VIII CR 10-11
SM VII CR 8-9
SM VI CR 6-7
SM V CR 5
SM IV CR 4
SM III CR 3
SM II CR 2
SM I CR 1
Astral Devas have been removed (CR 14), but otherwise monsters have been bumped up or down -- Rakshasas, for instance are now on SMVII (CR 9).
The article also talks about slapping on templates including celestial, fiendish and all the ones in the MotP. Also, it has variant rules in case the DM or players think the ability to select so many templates is too powerful.
Finally, there are guidelines for Summon Nature's Ally as well.
All in all, a great article and worth picking up.
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To answer your question, I think that the original Summon Monster series of spells is quite underpowered.
Merlion
First Post
My big issue with them is what you can summon. firstly as Eric says usualy what you can summon isnt going to be much help in a fight and 2 its just a limited list. I think their should be a formula for it, and the one I am considering if I end up running a campaign soon is: each summon monster spell can summon a creature with neither HD nor a CR greater than the caster level neccsary to cast the spell +1
So Summon Monster 2 could summon a creature with no more than 3 or 4 HD/CR
So Summon Monster 2 could summon a creature with no more than 3 or 4 HD/CR
EricNoah
Adventurer
Scaling, perhaps, could work like this...
You summon 1d3 monsters from the list for the given spell. You can choose to summon d4+1 monsters from any list that's of lower level, or you can summon 1 monster from the list that's attached to the spell of the next higher level.
If that seems too powerful, perhaps there could be a chance of the higher-level creature breaking free and attacking? Maybe some sort of diplomacy or intimidate check (or a cash gift?) could be used...
You summon 1d3 monsters from the list for the given spell. You can choose to summon d4+1 monsters from any list that's of lower level, or you can summon 1 monster from the list that's attached to the spell of the next higher level.
If that seems too powerful, perhaps there could be a chance of the higher-level creature breaking free and attacking? Maybe some sort of diplomacy or intimidate check (or a cash gift?) could be used...
Harker Wade
First Post
Combat & Non-combat durations
Perhaps giving to different durations would help. What I mean is when the spell is cast the caster declares whether or not it is combat application (5 rnds + 1 rnd per lvl) or a non-combat use (50 min. + 10 min per lvl). The non-combat uses like hauling material or tracking could be very useful. Should the non-combat version enter combat either by accident or being ordered to it simply vanishes.
I've been working on this idea for a while. I just haven't had a player who has really used the summon spells.
Perhaps giving to different durations would help. What I mean is when the spell is cast the caster declares whether or not it is combat application (5 rnds + 1 rnd per lvl) or a non-combat use (50 min. + 10 min per lvl). The non-combat uses like hauling material or tracking could be very useful. Should the non-combat version enter combat either by accident or being ordered to it simply vanishes.
I've been working on this idea for a while. I just haven't had a player who has really used the summon spells.
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