Are templates and nonstandard races balanced ECL-wise?

[DM_Matt]

Is it just me, or are templates generally a FAR better value than nonstandard races? Is not a normal character with a 1-3 level equivalent Template Like Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial/Fiend, Akutenshi (mwhahaaaa), or Vampire generally far more powerful than a character of a race with the same number of ECL points?

 

[hong]

Is it just me, or are templates generally a FAR better value than nonstandard races? Is not a normal character with a 1-3 level equivalent Template Like Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial/Fiend, Akutenshi (mwhahaaaa), or Vampire generally far more powerful than a character of a race with the same number of ECL points?

CR != ECL. The half-dragon has a +4 ECL, according to Dragon 293, for starters, and the half-celestial has +5. AFAIK, the akutenshi doesn't even have an ECL.

 

[Archer]

The thing is that not all monster HD are created equal. Animal, humanoid, aberation or undead HD might only be worth 0.5 ECL while dragon and outsider are worth slightly more than 1.

Monk saves, fighter BAB, thief skills and barbarian HD all in one class is pretty good even if you don't get any class abilities.

On the other hand, cleric hp and bab, fighter saves and commoner's skills (or worse!) is awful without class abilities.

Templates always have the same value and the same cost so the comparison varies by what you compare them too. A template costs you all saves, all bab, all skills and all HD and all class abilities plus all attribute raises and feats so their ECL is usually lower for what you do get.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Furthermore, the biggest issue is special powers which might make a monster a slightly tougher fight but in a PC could be a real game-breaker unless taken into account.

For instance the Githyanki come with telekinesis as a high level sorcerer - you wouldn't want that to be given free to 1st level characters.

In the DMG section about ECL, note what it says about pixies...

Cheers

 

[DM_Matt]

Re: Re: Are templates and nonstandard races balanced ECL-wise?

CR != ECL. The half-dragon has a +4 ECL, according to Dragon 293, for starters, and the half-celestial has +5. AFAIK, the akutenshi doesn't even have an ECL.

Good point...I forgot about that errata....then again, that whole set of errata is even worse than the problems associated with it because it makes all nonstandard races impractical.

However, I now see that that WAS necessary because pre-errata, templates probably ARE ovepowered. But making it all weak is not a good idea either. And Akutenshi is still +2...OA was spared the savagery to drag mag 293, altohugh that just makes it an even more broken template than it already is, and one of my favorite smackdown machines.

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Re: Are templates and nonstandard races balanced ECL-wise?

However, I now see that that WAS necessary because pre-errata, templates probably ARE ovepowered. But making it all weak is not a good idea either. And Akutenshi is still +2...OA was spared the savagery to drag mag 293, altohugh that just makes it an even more broken template than it already is, and one of my favorite smackdown machines.

I think you mean akustukai, not akutenshi. Akutsukai is a CR +2 template (for 8+ HD creatures). It isn't an ECL +2 template.

CR != ECL