Are the costs for intelligent magic items too low?

[Pielorinho]

I recently worked with my DM to design an intelligent magic item: basically, through a series of rituals (I've got Create Wondrous Item), I "awakened" a prayer-bead of Karma. The bead was described originally as having the essence of an ancient, famous dwarven cleric tied to it, so I gave it the following powers:
-Diplomacy 10 ranks (she was a leader of her folks) (cost 5000 gp)
-Bless 3x/day (cost 1000 gp)
-Cure moderate WOunds 3x/day (cost 6,500 gp)
-Cast Magic Circle Against Evil at will (cost 16,000)
-The 9,000 package deal to activate it intelligently.

My DM just asked me to try pricing these abilities out individually, and I was a little shocked at the first thing I tried: Magic Circle Against Evil. If we're very generous and call it a command-word-activated ability instead of use-activated, the cost ought to be 3(the level) x 5 (the minimum caster level) x1,800 (the base price) x1.5 (since the duration is measured in 10 minutes/level), for a cost of 40,500 gp. Just for this one ability.

Is this a fluke? Is there a reason for these low prices?

Daniel

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is this a fluke? Is there a reason for these low prices?

Well, there's a contradiction between the Magic Item Creation: Intelligent Item Creation section and the Intelligent Items section.

A line in the first might explain the low prices:

INTELLIGENT ITEM CREATION
To create an intelligent item, a character must have a caster level of 15th or higher. Time and creation cost are based on the normal item creation rules, with the market price values on Table: Item Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and Capabilities treated as additions to time, gp cost, and XP cost. The item’s alignment is the same as its creator’s. Determine other features randomly, following the guidelines in the relevant section.

Of course, in the Intelligent Items section, it says:

INTELLIGENT ITEM POWERS
The table above determines how many lesser and greater powers an intelligent item has. To find the item’s specific powers, choose or roll on the appropriate tables below.

It could be argued that a randomly-determined power is of lesser worth than a selected power (if one follows the 'determine randomly' dictate, rather than the 'choose or roll' guideline).

Of course, one then has the problem that the cost in GP and XP is also randomly determined... what happens if you have sufficient available XP to create an intelligent item, but some of the random powers take the cost out of your price range?

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

Well, there's a contradiction between the Magic Item Creation: Intelligent Item Creation section and the Intelligent Items section.

Um. You're supposed to be fifteenth level? Oops--I'm fourteenth. NOt too big a deal, but I kinda wish this had been in the intelligent item section. Ah well.

Yeah, we'd talked about the weirdness of determining randomly traits of an item you were creating, and figuring out the costs for that; instead, the DM and I worked together to come up with thematically appropriate stuff. The diplomacy ranks, for example, aren't really that great for my character, and the CMW would be better in a wand, not in an item; but they make sense. So I'm not too worried about that.

I was wondering if maybe since most of Magic Circle is superfluous by the time you get these items figures into it--by this point, everyone's got +2 deflection on their AC and +2 resistance to saves. It may therefore be cheaper than comparable powers, since you're really getting half the normal benefits of the spell.

Daniel

 

[Nareau]

As the DM in question, here are my calculations on how this item should be priced without the intelligence:
Magic circle against evil, continuous
3 (spell level)* 5 (caster level) * 2000 (use activated or continuous) * 1.5 (10 min/level) = 45000gp

3x/day bless
1 (spell level) * 1 (caster level) * 2000 (use activated or continuous) * 5/3 (3/day) * .75 (similar ability) = 3333

3x/day cure moderate wounds
3 (spell level) * 5 (caster level) * 2000 (use activated or continuous) * 5/3 (3/day) * .75 (similar ability) = 50000

+10 diplomacy
10 * 10 * 100 * 1.5 = 15000

Bead of karma
20,000 * 1.5 (different ability) = 30000

Total cost: 143333

I counted the abilities as "use activated" but I'm not sure that's exactly right. The item can activate these powers without interference from the user, so I think that's the best way to treat it. It's certainly not "command word".

Did I make a mistake in allowing the creation of this item at the reduced costs given in the "intelligent item creation" rules? The cost at this point is almost 1/3 of what it "should" have cost.

The diplomacy ranks, for example, aren't really that great for my character

I disagree strongly here. These ranks make your character the most proficient diplomat in the party, and a leader in NPC negotiations.

the CMW would be better in a wand, not in an item

I disagree. You've found a way to make druids excellent out of combat healers (summoning a unicorn). While it's true that the cost per casting of CMW would be less in a wand, the fact that you can be healed withough sacrificing an action during combat is a tremendous bonus.

I was wondering if maybe since most of Magic Circle is superfluous by the time you get these items figures into it--by this point, everyone's got +2 deflection on their AC and +2 resistance to saves.

While I do think that magic items should be priced somewhat relative to their efficacy, I don't think that should be the only criteria. Besides, this argument is overridden quickly by the fact that enchantment [compulsion] magic is one of the single most important obstacles in the campaign. The fact that you can nullify such magics simply by moving up next to someone is far more useful than it would be in a "normal" campaign.

Spider

 

[Aaron L]

The table above determines how many lesser and greater powers an intelligent item has. To find the item’s specific powers, choose or roll on the appropriate tables below.[/i]

-Hyp.

But is this the rule for creating an intelligent item, or just for the DM to determine the properties of a randomly found intelligent item?

 

[brehobit]

Is this a fluke? Is there a reason for these low prices?

Daniel

One clear mistake: the item does NOT give +10 to a skill! It _has_ 10 ranks. Big big difference. I actually feel those costs are too high at 5,000.

Secondly, the cost of bless and CMW are computed incorrectly by Spider. He multiplied by 5/3 instead of 3/5. So bless _should_ cost 2000*3/5 or 1200. CMW should be 3*5*2,000*3/5 or 18,000. This is ignoring the similar ability discount (which I'm not sure I'd give!)

The magic circle appears to be computed correctly (I've not seen the 1.5 multiplier, but it sounds about right for 10min/level). It is a powerful ability, but often not useful (depending on the game...). I personally would price it around 30,000gp.

Opinion:
Intelligent magic items are very powerful for their cost. But the down side is they have a personality. No item should always do what you want it to do (without an ego test at least). The item has a seperate set of goals. Things will _often_ go smoothly, but not always.

My longest-running character had a LN sword which mostly did what my LN dwarf wanted. But it was fanatical about honesty. It had the ability to detect lie (2nd edition) and would call the PC, his allies, and NPCs out for lieing all the time. Fit well, but man was it a problem from time to time.

And there are other misc. penalties. Things like I'd treat the item as a follower type for purposes of reducing the power of a cohort (via leadership).

Mark

 

[FEADIN]

But is this the rule for creating an intelligent item, or just for the DM to determine the properties of a randomly found intelligent item?

I think so, it's when the DM roll a treasure randomly.
For the calculation I agree withe the price given in the extended calculation by Spider with some mistakes corrected by Brehobit; around 120000/140000 gp.

 

[Pielorinho]

I disagree strongly here. These ranks make your character the most proficient diplomat in the party, and a leader in NPC negotiations.

On the contrary, they essentially give me a +2 circumstance bonus on any diplomacy check on which I can justify having the amulet aid me. Or, if I can convince someone through some means or another to negotiate directly with a talking diamond, I can take advantage of the full bonus; so far, that hasn't happened. Again, I'd be very happy from a powergaming perspective to trade this out for something else.

(edit: and I think I've been roleplaying it this way as well, what with my alienating an army of essentially nonaggressive undead, insulting our main local contact, calling our only black-market contact a cheat, and doing a generally clumsy job of introducing ourselves to a potential ally. If I need to be playing my total diplomacy modifier of +1 as even worse, let me know!)

I disagree. You've found a way to make druids excellent out of combat healers (summoning a unicorn). While it's true that the cost per casting of CMW would be less in a wand, the fact that you can be healed withough sacrificing an action during combat is a tremendous bonus.

In play, it's not yet been particularly useful. I've used the ability, but only because it's there; I've got superior forms of in-combat healing (shapeshifting, spellcasting).

Besides, this argument is overridden quickly by the fact that enchantment [compulsion] magic is one of the single most important obstacles in the campaign. The fact that you can nullify such magics simply by moving up next to someone is far more useful than it would be in a "normal" campaign.

It's also far more useful because we've got no cleric, and I get to spend a lot of my resources trying to fill in the cleric role. I'd very happily cede that position if we could get someone to play a real cleric. In a normal campaign (i.e., one with a cleric), the item would be less useful for that reason, too.

Daniel

 

[Stalker0]

As has been mentioned, its the item that casts those spells, not you.

So far example in a battle on your initiative, you tell you sword (cast MCAE)..then on the SWORD's initiative, it casts the spell....maybe

 

[Pielorinho]

As has been mentioned, its the item that casts those spells, not you.

So far example in a battle on your initiative, you tell you sword (cast MCAE)..then on the SWORD's initiative, it casts the spell....maybe

This is true, and is definitely how we've been playing it. Sorry if I made it sound otherwise.

Daniel