Master of the Game
First Post
Bah, it's not worth taking the chance that he might actually show up. Some people need firin'Chimera said:
Are we gamers an ungrateful lot?
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Arkhandus
First Post
You have some wierd ideas on value and physical versus digital media, Chaos Disciple. 
Ideas, information, and data have value. There wouldn't be an Internet if these things were 'worthless'. Just because some things are offered freely on the Internet does not mean that anything and everything you can put online is valueless and should be 'free', cuz not every bit of data is equally valued or valueless. Opinions are free. Ideas and information derived from actual work has value and is typically useful in some fashion, beyond simply expressing one's opinions about this or that.
Even if you print something on paper, you can reproduce that document and spread it around freely if you wanted, such as a newsletter or advertisement or whatnot. You could sell it at cost instead, but it wouldn't make much difference; it's only a matter of being somewhat less convenient than digital information spreading, and a certain degree of cost involved in the printing process and whatnot.
But most of the cost for any given book or similar item is only for the end consumer, added so that the original producer can make a profit, pay the distributors, and pay the authors and artists who wrote/illustrated the book. You can't honestly say that hardcopies are inherantly valuable just because they're printed on paper with ink (which only makes up a tiny, miniscule portion of the book's cost), while saying that digital copies are inherantly worthless just because they don't incur that tiny bit of cost in raw materials (and bypass some or most of the distribution cost).
They both contain the same information/graphics and represent the same amount/quality of work by the authors/illustrators. The digital media is just easier to copy and spread, while potentially saving some trees and, uhh, whatever inks are made from.
Ideas and game mechanics have never been free. I'm pretty sure man has always sought to make a profit off of his clever ideas and, indeed, a great many people have made their livings by coming up with ideas (and getting paid for them, as those ideas lead to new products and services that keep companies afloat). The time and effort put into producing new ideas has always had value (as long as the ideas were useful ones, such as ideas for game mechanics, as games are useful in overcoming boredom and entertaining people).
Sure, some ideas are given away freely, and that's fine, but it's in man's nature to try benefitting from his ideas and actions (ergo, being paid for them so he can make a living, rather than working and thinking all the time without any recompense to cover necessary living expenses). And that's a fine, normal, morally acceptable expectation (only an idiot would never want some kind of compensation for their efforts; as such a person would quickly die of starvation, thirst, and exposure to the elements, unless all of their efforts were entirely selfish and directly involved acquiring food, water, and shelter only for themselves).
Anyway, from your opinions I can only gather that you are intractable in your position and will likely continue to disregard the inherant value of ideas, so I'm not going to bother with any further responses. I've said my piece. G'day or somethin'. :\
Ideas, information, and data have value. There wouldn't be an Internet if these things were 'worthless'. Just because some things are offered freely on the Internet does not mean that anything and everything you can put online is valueless and should be 'free', cuz not every bit of data is equally valued or valueless. Opinions are free. Ideas and information derived from actual work has value and is typically useful in some fashion, beyond simply expressing one's opinions about this or that.
Even if you print something on paper, you can reproduce that document and spread it around freely if you wanted, such as a newsletter or advertisement or whatnot. You could sell it at cost instead, but it wouldn't make much difference; it's only a matter of being somewhat less convenient than digital information spreading, and a certain degree of cost involved in the printing process and whatnot.
But most of the cost for any given book or similar item is only for the end consumer, added so that the original producer can make a profit, pay the distributors, and pay the authors and artists who wrote/illustrated the book. You can't honestly say that hardcopies are inherantly valuable just because they're printed on paper with ink (which only makes up a tiny, miniscule portion of the book's cost), while saying that digital copies are inherantly worthless just because they don't incur that tiny bit of cost in raw materials (and bypass some or most of the distribution cost).
They both contain the same information/graphics and represent the same amount/quality of work by the authors/illustrators. The digital media is just easier to copy and spread, while potentially saving some trees and, uhh, whatever inks are made from.
Ideas and game mechanics have never been free. I'm pretty sure man has always sought to make a profit off of his clever ideas and, indeed, a great many people have made their livings by coming up with ideas (and getting paid for them, as those ideas lead to new products and services that keep companies afloat). The time and effort put into producing new ideas has always had value (as long as the ideas were useful ones, such as ideas for game mechanics, as games are useful in overcoming boredom and entertaining people).
Sure, some ideas are given away freely, and that's fine, but it's in man's nature to try benefitting from his ideas and actions (ergo, being paid for them so he can make a living, rather than working and thinking all the time without any recompense to cover necessary living expenses). And that's a fine, normal, morally acceptable expectation (only an idiot would never want some kind of compensation for their efforts; as such a person would quickly die of starvation, thirst, and exposure to the elements, unless all of their efforts were entirely selfish and directly involved acquiring food, water, and shelter only for themselves).
Anyway, from your opinions I can only gather that you are intractable in your position and will likely continue to disregard the inherant value of ideas, so I'm not going to bother with any further responses. I've said my piece. G'day or somethin'. :\
And no, you don't have to use papar at any stage.Chaos Disciple said:
Okay, so you admit that part of the value of a book comes from the content...
... but then you claim that content is worth "nothing".
Could you make up your mind and then get back to us?
(Although I'm still giggling at your assertion that, for example, companies shouldn't pay their employees for their labor. After all, labor has no physical substance and they are, according to you, paying their employees for nothing. One is forced to wonder where you work, exactly, and whether you will be returning all of your paychecks since you obviously believe that you're been defrauding your employer.)
Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net
catsclaw227
First Post
Is it safe then to assume that you believe all software should be free since programming and code are essentially ideas, have no physical form, and require you to use your own computer.Chaos Disciple said:
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Ranger REG
Explorer
Customer service: the last job on this universe I would ever take.Kae'Yoss said:
No matter how polite you are, there is always one or ten customers that condescend you every day. Not a day goes by I'd like to have a loaded shotgun hidden under my counter.
Dire Bare
Legend
Kae'Yoss said:
Sorry if my post implied that you were somehow wrong in being upset at your treatment from this company. From my experience, the practice of not changing a customer's service plan without that customer taking the initiative is what I was referring too.
CSRs (Customer Service Reps) who treat you rudely, condescendingly, refuse to work with you, harass you and so on definitely constitute poor customer service. However, sadly enough, I think that's pretty industry standard too somewhat.
Customer service is a lousy industry to work in for two reasons: 1) idiot customers, and 2) the other idiots who work for your company pissing off the customers (good and bad) and leaving you to deal with it. Oh yeah, and 3) poor management and uncaring corporations.
No, I'm not bitter . . . .
Chaos Disciple
Explorer
JustinA said:
Paper content- Who buys a RPG book filled with blank pages?
Digital media- all digital information you can get is worth the cost of a computer and maybe the internet
I think you are confused about labor because it does produce physical results
Mouseferatu
Hero
Chaos Disciple said:
I'm sorry, let me just make sure I'm clear on what you're saying.
If I spent months plugging away at the keyboard, writing 100,000 words of solid D&D material; and I spend many hours of that time carefully creating stat blocks, and comparing new feats/spells to old feats/spells, all to make sure they're mechanically sound; and if this is, in fact, what I do for a living...
Are you then saying that the worth of all that work, all that effort, and all those written words is based entirely on whether or not WotC (or whoever) puts them out in book form or PDF form? That they're worth X cents a word in the first case, but nothing in the latter case? Despite the fact that it's the exact same work?
Please, do tell. I'm fascinated in learning how valuable you think my time, effort, and labor actually are.
Chaos Disciple
Explorer
Mouseferatu said:
Well obviously you didnt do all that work because you liked it. But if some company has hired/contracted you once they have bought your work Its upto them to pick a medium for sale not you. So Im not sure why you are conserned about what happens to your ideas after youve been paid.
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