Are we sure we need a skill guy?

I like players to use skills, so in my Savage Tide game, all classes get an additional +2 skill points/level with all skills as class skills. I think it's made the players more apt to participate in any given scene.
 

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blargney the second said:
I think it's made the players more apt to participate in any given scene.

That's what I'm talking about.

Skill-heavy character gets to shine in certain scenes, while everybody else is a little weak and hangs back. The reverse is true in combat-heavy scenes. That's not my style, so I'm thinking I should figure out a 2 or 3 class variant that is closer to my style.
 

How about turning this about a little? What are the scenarios under which you envision skills coming to the fore in a truly streamlined game with only three classes? This problem will exist for any character class potentially filling a niche beyond thunk/spell-user/healer (or whatever triad you prefer).
 

Mistwell said:
I am saying that a skills focused character is no more or less fun, necessary, or useful than any other type of the four main characters.

You don't even need a caster. You could easily work with a heavy fighter, light fighter, and skills-focused character, and have no casters at all. Much like Iron Thrones.
I agree; lots of folks--mostly those who've only played D&D I suspect--get hung up on the various standard D&D "roles" to be filled in a party, and making sure that the party has adequate "coverage" of all the roles. I've run d20 games where I completely yanked out the magic system and replaced it with magic from d20 Call of Cthulhu. Only one character ventured to use any magic and I daresay it was much more for flavor than to be effective as a caster in combat--the magic system is designed to not be effective in combat, but to be a last ditch resource for certain kinds of challenges.

It works fine. You don't need all the roles. However, you do need a GM who's paying attention and not throwing challenges at you as if you do have all the roles covered.
 

rycanada said:
Skill-heavy character gets to shine in certain scenes, while everybody else is a little weak and hangs back. The reverse is true in combat-heavy scenes. That's not my style, so I'm thinking I should figure out a 2 or 3 class variant that is closer to my style.
Why don't you do away with skills altogether? If no one has any skills then those scenes won't exist.
 

Because nowhere was the stated goal "get rid of these scenes"? The stated goal was to find a way to allow non-skill user classed characters to participate in them more.
 

I was thinking a similar thing a short time ago.

Of the four main roles that are commonly perceived as being needed in a D&D party (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard), only two are really necessary. Wizard/Cleric is a totally arbitrary and unecessary seperation, and the Rogue's focus, skills, can easily be folded into any other role.

That distinction between combat classes. skill classes, and magic classes, is not very indicative of the current game anyways. In all of the various rule supplements, there are many classes which break these boundaries and don;t exist in any one role.

However, I think the game might be a little better (and more flexible) if every class got the same number of skill points, except had different class skills, so that when a skill becomes necessary, it is not always the same character who is in the limelight.

This is something of a sidetrack, but if you want to count real roles, rather than the classic roles of D&D, there are about 5 or 6 that I can think of. First, there would be the three classic miltary roles: infantry, archers, and cavalry. Second would be the spy/assassin/scout type. Third would the fantasy genre necessity of the spellcaster. Finally, there may or may not be a place for a wholly diplomatic/aristocratic type of character.

Thus, the roles would be:
Melee tank (melee weapons and ability to absorb damage, normal fighters and warblades)
Ranged fighter (ranged weapons and damage capability, not filled well in D&D)
Mounted combat specialist (people who can ride mounts, very much not seen in D&D)
Rogue types (people who attack from the shadows, rogues, ninjas, and assassins)
Spellcasters (people who are physically fragile but use magic, wizards, bards, and druids)
Other (non-combatants, diplomats, and strange hybrids of roles, I suppose)

The big problem with D&D is that is lumps the first three of these roles into the same class, fighter, even though they really are as different from each other as they are from spellcasting. It also artificially distinguishes Rogue types by also making them skill-monkeys, even though that is not necessary.

edit: Actually, I just had an interesting thought. The roles of archer and spellcaster are in fact quite similar (person who must be protected and does a lot of damage at range), especially in the case of destructive spellcasters. In many places (videogames, really), the two are almost indistiguishable.

So, in that case, the roles would be split into:
Melee tanks
Archers and offensive spellcasters
Cavalry
Support spellcasters (bards and maybe clerics)
Rogue types

I find myself questioning more and more the distinction between rogue and the first two categories, but I suppose any attempt at assigning roles is not going to be perfect.
 
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My old gaming group came up with the idea of seperating skill points from the classes altogether.

Instead of having the class determine the number of skill points a character had, all characters started with a certain number of skill points which could then be spent on Class and Cross Class skills.

The place where we got hung up was in determining exactly how many skill points each character should have. One suggestion was to simply give all character's 5 + Int skill points per level (x4 at 1st of course). Another suggestion was that all characters gained twice their Int score (score not modifier) in skill points at 1st level and half their Int score at each additional level; thus smarter characters would have more skill points.

Of course my gaming group desolved before we ever got a chance to try it out.
 

Varianor Abroad said:
How about turning this about a little? What are the scenarios under which you envision skills coming to the fore in a truly streamlined game with only three classes? This problem will exist for any character class potentially filling a niche beyond thunk/spell-user/healer (or whatever triad you prefer).

Assume for a second that fighter feat selection nicely supports both heavy and light fighting styles. So fighter types have in-combat roles defined by their fighter feat selection.

Next assume a broader range of choice for a Warlock-style class. Warlock-types have their in-combat roles defined by Invocation selections.

Both types have their out of combat roles (burglary, social, athelete, craftsman, etc.) defined by their skills.
 

Doug McCrae said:
Why don't you do away with skills altogether? If no one has any skills then those scenes won't exist.

Very... randomly said. Why on earth would I want to get rid of those scenes?
 

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