Are women just bored of the rings?

[KaCee]

I have read one of the uppity books. The uppity woman of the new world I did not realize there were more of them I willhave to go look for them.

I've got a list of them here with a brief review and a note about a duplicate under a different title: http://kimberlychapman.com/books.html (way down near the bottom of the page). They're linked to Amazon but I'm sure they're available in lots of other places.

 

[Zander]

What deed was this? In the book, Merry stabs the Nazgul in the leg and then Eowyn sticks her sword between helm and mantle. That's what I saw in the movie too.

I could be mistaken but I didn't see Merry attacking the Witch King. It looked like all Eowyn's doing. In the book, both in the narrative describing the fight and in Aragorn's words in a later chapter, Eowyn would have lost and been killed had it not been for Merry. IIRC Aragorn says that Eowyn was not the equal of the Witch King "in mind or body". So the fact that she was not a "living man" (to quote the nazgul in the book) was not the reason she succeeded. If anything, Tolkien was making an anti-PC statement, not a PC one (in as much as concepts such as PC were understood when LotR was written). By altering Merry's role, Jackson has made it PC. I'm hoping to see the film again tonight and will double check Merry's contribution.

 

[Djeta Thernadier]

Well,

I'm a woman and I LOVE the movies. I think that the female characters are awesome. I mean come on...one of them is more romantic princess and the other is a kicka$$ fighter... It's like the best of both worlds...And on top of it, you have Legolas and Aragorn, and I know a couple of women who'd literally watch anything these guys are in.

Actually I know one woman who is disturbingly attracted to Gandalf...but that's another story

I personally could care less if a movie has a bada$$ female character or a couple of hot guys. If it's a captivating story, I'm going to like it, regardless. And LoTR is a GREAT story. Not to mention just watching the film is breathtaking. The locations, the effects and the actors are all great. I could watch these films a hundred times and not get sick of them.Maybe that makes me weird.

What really amazed me is that my mom is even interested in them, mostly because of Aragorn but also because she thinks they look "pretty" and "exciting" (of course, they are!)

I think these films just have so much to offer to so many people; not just those who are interested in fantasy.

If the women they asked about it for this survey think it's boring, well, I feel kind of sad for them, if they can't find at least something in the films to enjoy. But if they'd be more excited by Sweet Home Alabama I guess that's their choice.

 

[KaCee]

I could be mistaken but I didn't see Merry attacking the Witch King.

You must have blinked. He did. Brought the Witch King to his knees, making a nicely lined up shot for Eowyn to stab him in the face.

As for what Eowyn says in the book...

A sword rang as it was drawn. 'Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may.'

'Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!'

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. 'But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.'

Then there's a big long description that essentially comes down to Merry stabbing him in the back of the knee and Eowyn using the opportunity to drive "her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her."

As for what Aragorn says in the book...

"Alas! For she was pitted against a foe beyond the strength of her mind or body. And those who will take a weapon to such an enemy must be sterner than steel, if the very shock shall not destroy them. It was an evil doom that set her in his path. For she is a fair maiden, fairest lady of a house of queens."

Then he goes on about how great she is and how he wishes he could have helped her and how she'll be remembered amongst the greatest queens.

There's absolutely nothing there to refute that she succeeded as a woman where a man could not. However, if you maintain that there is such a passage, I invite you to quote it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I could be mistaken but I didn't see Merry attacking the Witch King. It looked like all Eowyn's doing.

Yeah, in the film version, he sticks the dagger he got from Galadriel in the FotREE into the back of the Witch King's leg, there's a black flash, and he falls back clutching his arm and collapses.

-Hyp.

 

[Teflon Billy]

I posted all of the following a page back or so any have yet to see any response. I thought it was fairly well-written. Any comments?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

...Look, maybe you are everything you are stereotyped to be. But I haven't met anyone yet who lives up to even half of their gender and racial stereotypes.

No, nobody is everyting they are stereotyped to be, but you are suggesting that stereotypes are entirely baseless, and I'm saying that they are the way in which we are able to discuss large groups and predict behaviour. It succeeds more often than it fails.

When I say, for example, most of the audience for...pro wrestling... is male, your response (following the logic you've layed out here) should be something akin to...

"No it's not, because--given that women do most of the spending in the world, and the WWF is financially successful--this implies that the audience is not mostly men. Plus, women's tastes are entirely individual so the fact that the subject matter is designed to appeal to men means nothing."

Your theory also fails to take into account that if you open your eyes and look around at a Pro wrestling event you are seeing mostly men...evidence I find compelling (if anecdotal)

Sure, I know women who are obsessed with shoes and shopping, but some of them hate babies and don't care how their butt looks in those pants.

But if you take a larger sample group than "women you know" fairly obvious patterns emerge. Christ, the examples you list above (Shoes, Shopping, Babies and Butt-Size) would appear on the list of "typical female concerns"...you obviously recognize them as such even as you dismiss two of them.

Why Shoudn't the rest of the world recognize them?

The point is, you can't take these multitudes of generalizations and use them to describe diverse groups. You can try and you'll be right once in awhile by chance...

By chance? Just sheer random luck?

I'll stick by my notion that you can predict the genral preferences of large groups and wait for my senses and experiences to tell me different.

 

[Corinth]

Note: If it weren't Arwen badgering Elrond to do it, the shards of Narsil would never get reforged into Anduril; Aragorn would never have survived the Paths of the Dead (because it was the sword that allowed Aragorn to press his claim, both in its own right and as a symbol of Aragorn's authority); Aragorn would never have saved Minas Tirith, nor taken control of Gondor's military, nor performed the distraction needed to buy Frodo and Sam the time need to get to Mount Doom.

Yeah, Arwen caused all that happen in the last film. Her small act of defiance--along with her choice to life as a Man instead of an Elf--was the lynchpin that made all of Aragorn's deeds possible. Arwen wasn't a throwaway character.

 

[Merlion]

This is a subject I find interesting on many levels. for background purposes, I am a young gay male gamer fantasy fan "geek" (although I dont really like using those terms).
All my female friends and family love the movies and/or the books.
teflon Billy is partialy right...most sterotypes do have some basis in fact. However, I think in the case of gender stuff, its less about gender and more about societal gender roles and conditioning. Yes many traits are to be found in most men, and many different ones in most women, but I think a lot of that is cultural more than something physicaly or pyschologicaly inherent in the genders.
obviously, the author of the articles statements about lack of emotion are simply absurd. Both males and females showed emotions of all sorts, directed at both others of the same, and oposite genders. This was indeed one of the most emotional movies I've ever seen...I would have broken down completely if I'd let myself.
As for female roles in LOTR, and in Tolkien in general, well lets examine the Big 3 ladies in LOTR. Eowyn. Strong willed, formidable in battle, loyal in the extreme, commiter of probably the 2nd greatest mortal act in the 3rd age(destroying his Incorporeal Idiocy. the 1st would be frodo surviving till mount doom). Arwen..well she doesnt have a supper big role in the books but remember, in books and movie...she was Aragorn's motivation. And in the books she also helped ease Frodo's suffering prior to his departure. Then we have my favorite, and probably my favorite of all the characters, Galadriel. Her raw power is never really shown in LOTR, but she is indeed powerful and dangerous. However in LOTR, by her own statement (in the books) her purpose lies not in what she can do, but what she knows. She's one of the only people in the books who's lived through almost the entire history of Middle-Earth. In the book its she who truly explains whats going on to Frodo and Sam, and shows them important truths in her mirror.
Addmitedly, there arent a lot of super big female roles in LOTR. but if you look at the rest of Middle-Earths history, their are quite a few more. Of course the Valier, particualrly Varda, Yavanna and Nienna. Ariane the powerful Maia who guides the vessel of the Sun. And of course Queen Melian, who kept an entire kingdom hedged against evil for centuries. Indeed, Varda Elbereth in a way does appear in LOTR...the very mention of her name creates some powerful and important effects (driving away the Nazgul from Weathertop, enhancing the power of Galadriel's phial). And in a way, the real power of the Phial belongs to Yavanna and to Varda
Even though as I said, sterotypes do have some accuracy, it does all come down to each person in the end.

 

[Teflon Billy]

...Teflon Billy is partially right...most stereotypes do have some basis in fact. However, I think in the case of gender stuff, its less about gender and more about societal gender roles and conditioning. Yes many traits are to be found in most men, and many different ones in most women, but I think a lot of that is cultural more than something physically or pyschologically inherent in the genders.

..and that makes absolutely zero difference to what I said, or the point I was making when I said it.

I was talking about the way things are, not the root causes of the situation..

As for female roles in LOTR, and in Tolkien in general, well lets examine the Big 3 ladies in LOTR. Eowyn. Strong willed, formidable in battle, loyal in the extreme, commiter of probably the 2nd greatest mortal act in the 3rd age(destroying his Incorporeal Idiocy. the 1st would be frodo surviving till mount Doom).

I have nothing but love for the Eowyn character. Her killing of the Witch King was the only point in the movie where the women attending the showing I was at audibly cheered. Which (again, anecdotally) reinforces my suspicions that women won't cheer for male heroism (at least not in the numbers they will for female heroism, or in the numbers which men will cheer for male heroism).

Which is why, thanks to the miracle of test marketing and demographic-driven rewrites, we get...

Arwen..well she doesnt have a super big role in the books but remember, in both the books and movie...she was Aragorn's motivation. And in the books she also helped ease Frodo's suffering prior to his departure.

Yup. But none of that involves her being as physically combative/active as a man...which is what tests well with the modern female demographic.

Tending to the wounded and being "inspirational" does not get women into a theatre, so we get a rewrite with Arwen as the new Glorfindel.

Then we have my favorite, and probably my favorite of all the characters, Galadriel. Her raw power is never really shown in LOTR, but she is indeed powerful and dangerous. However in LOTR, by her own statement (in the books) her purpose lies not in what she can do, but what she knows. She's one of the only people in the books who's lived through almost the entire history of Middle-Earth. In the book its she who truly explains whats going on to Frodo and Sam, and shows them important truths in her mirror.

Yes...and? I thought Galadriel's role from Book to Film was largely unchanged.

Addmitedly, there arent a lot of super big female roles in LOTR. but if you look at the rest of Middle-Earths history, their are quite a few more. Of course the Valier, particualrly Varda, Yavanna and Nienna. Ariane the powerful Maia who guides the vessel of the Sun. And of course Queen Melian, who kept an entire kingdom hedged against evil for centuries. Indeed, Varda Elbereth in a way does appear in LOTR...the very mention of her name creates some powerful and important effects (driving away the Nazgul from Weathertop, enhancing the power of Galadriel's phial). And in a way, the real power of the Phial belongs to Yavanna and to Varda

Which would probably be fine were we not watching the film adaptation of "Lord of the Rings" but rather "The Silmarillion".

Even though as I said, sterotypes do have some accuracy, it does all come down to each person in the end.

What do you mean "in the end"?

Decisions to alter source material to appeal to demographic target-markets are made well before "The End" and the decisions made are economically sound more often than not.

 

[Merlion]

I wasnt really responding to your post directly. I was just mentioning that you were right..to an extent.
I always have a tendency to deal with things in terms of their causes...I find cause and effect diffacult to seperate in thease situations.
The rest I was just giving my opnion on the issues being discussed in the thread.