Are you doing your part to destroy the industry?

[The Shaman]

I'm much more selective about what I buy, because as Griffonsec noted, I have a strong sense of diminishing returns from many gaming products.

In terms of soft- and hardcover game books, I picked up Troll Lords' Castles and Crusades players handbook and Necromancer's Wilderlands of High Fantasy boxed set - these were my "collector" purchases for the year in that I'm not currently running or playing in any fantasy games, nor am I particularly excited by the genre. From AEG I purchased The 1960s sourcebook for Spycraft to use with d20 Modern games - I purchased Wizards' Sandstorm for the same reason. The only Modern product I bought from Wizards' was d20 Apocalypse, a surprisingly good book - I received d20 Past (bleech...) as a birthday gift, so while not a personal purchase, it was still in a sense my "effect" on the "health of the gaming industry." I also added Martial Arts Mayhem and Modern Magic from the Game Mechanics to my Modern library - I already owned both products as .pdfs, but I felt that the softcovers were well-worth their value to me.

Add to this a double-handful of .pdfs, and that's my list of gaming purchases for the past year. I could have purchased more, but I chose not to. The fact that I'm not wild about medieval fantasy, and 3e Dungeons and Dragons in particular, puts my tastes well-outside the mainstream, of course - still, I look at many fantasy game books for use with fantastic Modern games, so it's not like these titles go unnoticed or unconsidered. I had high hopes for Wizards' Lords of Madness and Heroes of Horror, but I passed on both - they were simply not worth the money to me the way Frostburn or Libris Mortis was, in that the small amount of material that I'd actually use wasn't worth paying for the sheaf of pages that wouldn't make it into my games.

I don't need a constant stream of new material for my games - I can run just about anything that interests me at the moment using d20 Modern and a couple of supplements, and I don't use store-bought adventures. This means the game books I purchase are those that strike me as really exceptional, in particular making my role as a game master easier so that I can focus on setting and characters instead of developing house rules to fill in gaps - very few books out there do that for me, which is reflected in my buying history.

 

[WayneLigon]

Likewise with games like Midnight, Mutants and Masterminds, and all of these other "new edition" books which are basically reprints with a few pages of new materials.

Mutants and Masterminds' second ed contains some significant revisions to the way powers work and are purchased, new powers, a serious revised feat and skill system, plus many many pages of new material.

I don't buy nearly as much gaming stuff as I did when I was, say, 30. We don't play much of anything save D&D/d20 games right now, so most of what I would get would be just a waste of shelf space. I haven't bought anything from Wizards for quite some time. Most of the Race and Class books were not really useful enough to me to purchase new: I did get them when one of the local bookstores went out of business, because I got them at 40% off. There's a lot I'll buy at a steep discount that I wouldn't touch at full price. They're in the realm of 'it would be nice to have that but I don't need it'.

If I decided to create a world that was in the grip of an Ice Age I might get Frostburn, for example (even though I wouldn't because someone else in the group bought it and I would just borrow his until I memorized what rules parts I might want to use).

I almost always homebrew and I tend to homebrew with a very strong sense of the world and characters. Depending on the game, it can be pretty exclusive. This makes most setting-related releases useless to me.

Another part of how I'm destoying the industry is that I'm 43. I tend to make plans in terms of years, now, instead of months or weeks. We normally plan 'this years game' and that what we'll do for a solid year or more, because it takes us that long to do what we want to in a game. Part of me also thinks 'I should plan for 4E'. Even if they wait until 2010, that's only 4-5 campaigns for us.

 

[philreed]

Then I see books like Grim Tales, which I would like, but $35 for a 200 page book seems idiotic. The Spycraft book was $5 more and it was 2 and a half times larger, on high quality paper, and in full color.

It's important to note that the low price of Spycraft 2.0 did not save AEG from "reorganization." The game is no longer even with the company -- and I doubt we'll see the new publisher produce books of that size and quality for such a low price.

Spycraft 2.0 is not representative of the market. The book should have been at least $60.

 

[BryonD]

I've spent less this year than in the past several.

There has simply been less product that I want to buy.....

 

[Glyfair]

And yet, over the course of the entire existence of D&D, the price of RPG books has increased less than the overall rate of inflation. If they'd followed inflation from the late 70s to now, they'd cost a lot more than they do.

Ironically, it seems gamers want to spend more money (assuming they'll get some more value). For example, hardbound books have become more and more common because they sell better. The value increase is small, but it seems more gamers want to spend more for that upgrade then those that want to save money but not having the upgrades.

Mutants and Masterminds' second ed contains some significant revisions to the way powers work and are purchased, new powers, a serious revised feat and skill system, plus many many pages of new material.

I think this is somewhat ironic. IIRC, Green Ronin was one of the companies that was critical of WotC for hurting the d20 industry by putting out 3.5. If it wasn't them (my memory is a bit fuzzy on the exact situation), they were used as an example of companies moving towards creating their own OGL properties because they wouldn't have to worry about WotC pulling the rug out from under the sales of their older products.

There are 3rd parties who have used Green Ronins version of the d20 license and, presumbably, they have experienced the same thing from Green Ronin making the older version obsolete so soon after the originals release (IIRC, the time frame was about the same or slightly shorter). Not as many companies, of course. Still, the principle is the same.

 

[Griffonsec]

But it does mean that suggestions that WotC or anyone else is "trying to force the prices up" are somewhat uninformed.

Really? Because it seems that if a company on the verge of dropping out of RPGs like Alderac can produce one of the highest quality books I've seen in years can produce Spycraft at a price of $0.08 per page then a company with (comparatively) huge print runs like WOTC should be able to do a bit better than $0.17 per page, nearly twice as much. The same with Grim Tales, and all those who produce 200 page books for $35 a piece.

BTW, I'm not digging at GT, I don't even have it. I chose that one in particular because I actually am concidering picking it up. Like I said, some games are worth it.

Even Guardians of Order, who from rumors I've heard were on the verge of collapse no too long ago, produced a beautiful LICENCED product (GoT) for $0.10 per page. Or SJGames, who just lost much of their staff, who still put out the new GURPS edition for less than $0.12 per page. How about the new Shadowrun book that's less than $0.10 per page.

I don't think I'm the one who is uniformed here, I just think that those who are a bit too close to the d20 industry tend to be defensive about their prices. In fact, I'd venture to say that I have a great deal more broad knowledge of the entire industry (as opposed to the little niche we call d20) than your average bear. Instead of getting all defensive, perhaps you should just listen, maybe you'll learn something new about the customers.

Other portions of the industry are doing what they've always done. When people here talk about the industry they really mean d20. Reasonable, since this is a d20 site, but one should look at the industry as a whole when making such comparisons.

Look, I'm not trying to attack anyone, nor am I saying that you need to change the way you do business because I don't like it. I own my business, and I'd be damned if I'd let someone tell me what I should charge for my services or pay my employees.

But, if one of my customers gave me his thoughts on the choices I made I would listen. Not that I would change anything, but I would want to know.

 

[philreed]

Or SJGames, who just lost much of their staff,

I know I haven't worked there for well over a year but I was just in the office on Friday and didn't notice a decrease in staff. Are you talking about the layoffs from over four years ago?

EDIT: And judging a book's value by price/page is a worthless measure, in my opinion.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I have nothing to do with the pricing of books, D20 or otherwise. I'm a freelancer; WotC (or anyone else) would probably take your advice about pricing before they take mine.

Nor am I being particularly "defensive." I've had this same conversation multiple times, with many other people. Believe you me, I'd love it if books were cheaper; I buy as many as anyone.

But the fact of the matter is, people who work in the RPG industry--writers like myself, and others--get paid beans. And one of the reasons for that is that the RPG industry is underpriced compared to other markets. That's not opinion; it's simple numbers.

I'm not complaining about that; I knew what I was in for when I got involved. My point is simply that even companies that choose to maximize profit, as opposed to selling their books for bare minimum cost, are still making less, book for book and effort for effort, than are companies that produce comperably sized books in other markets.

And no, I'm not just talking about D20; I'm talking about the industry as a whole. The fact that Company X produced Book Y for cheaper than Company A produced Book B doesn't mean that X's business plan for that book is viable across the board.

Again, I'm not telling you that you should buy books out of any sense of "duty," or that you should be happy about prices going up. I'm simply pointing out that RPG books are still cheaper than they "should" be, if one were to take inflation into account across the last three decades, and that nobody has artificially inflated prices to the point where anyone's raking in the dough.

 

[Griffonsec]

I know I haven't worked there for well over a year but I was just in the office on Friday and didn't notice a decrease in staff. Are you talking about the layoffs from over four years ago?

EDIT: And judging a book's value by price/page is a worthless measure, in my opinion.

My information about SJGames comes from a conversation I had yesterday with someone who worked there until a couple months ago and still has friends there. If I'm wrong I appologize, not trying to start any rumors, just using an example of something I believe to be true. From what I was told the person they hired to help reorganize was fired and several people may be walking out with him.

I am not, however, directly affiliated with SJ in any way, so if I'm wrong I appologize to affronted parties.

As to cost per page being a good measurement, I'll agree with that, which is why I used books that I feel are shining examples. If I were only counting the pages I used (a even more subjective measurement) in something like the DMG II then the value per page would be more like $5.00 per page instead of $0.17.

I'm only commenting on factors that stop me from buying books that I otherwise would, not trying to guess at the value of something I have no interest in.

I'll use the example of a book, I believe it was called the Foundation: A World in Black and White. Written by Eric Metcalf, and released by Nightshift Games. I remember all of that because it was the single worst purchase of gaming materials that I have ever made in 23 years of playing. Because of that book I am d20 shy and no longer buy books because they "look cool." Because of that book I always second guess any books by those people involved in its production. That book cost me $20, and it is a 128 page count (I believe). That does not make it worth $0.16 per page, it just means that's what I paid for it. As far as value is concerned I could have gotten more use out of my $20 if I had wiped my ass with it.

No, price per page and frequency of editions alone does not make a good judge of a book. But it does serve as a rather effective way of narrowing the field from among books that you already would like to buy.

 

[Nikchick]

I think this is somewhat ironic. IIRC, Green Ronin was one of the companies that was critical of WotC for hurting the d20 industry by putting out 3.5.

You're right that Pramas has been critical of 3.5, but he's NEVER been critical of the quality of the changes or of WotC's right to make them. The implementation and release of 3.5 was poorly timed and mishandled and had an adverse effect on D20 across the board. It was promoted as a revision but in practice it was a series of hundreds and hundreds of small changes that meant players and D20-producers alike had to face remastering the game from the ground up. None of that is a position against the release of new editions or the rights of publishers to do them.

There are 3rd parties who have used Green Ronins version of the d20 license and, presumbably, they have experienced the same thing from Green Ronin making the older version obsolete so soon after the originals release (IIRC, the time frame was about the same or slightly shorter). Not as many companies, of course. Still, the principle is the same.

The time period between First and Second edition Mutants & Masterminds was about three years, which is very standard for this industry. Fans and players of first edition M&M exposed what we felt to be design flaws that we felt we could improve upon. looking to the long temr, it would be foolish to continue to support and entrench those flaws when we had the opportunity to correct them and produce an even better game going forward. We contacted M&M Superlink publishers during the process and brought them on board before the release of the new edition; they were offered advanced access to the new rules, I believe some were even involved as voluntary playtesters and advisors. Many of the people using Mutants & Masterminds as the basis of their own designs are PDF publishers who can much more easily revise their products without having to worry about obsolete stock (compared to print publishers who have to consider the implications of having thousands of copies of a printed book that is no longer compatible).

I don't think the two scenarios are really very comparable at all.