Are you playing D&D if there are no dice?

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Then that takes the DM out of playing the game, interesting.

I agree. I tried the electronic die roller for about 15 minutes before I had to get those babies shaking again. I love a crit as DM almost as much as I do as a player.

 

[shilsen]

True, I guess my question is more of a theory question. If the players aren't actually rolling dice, are they still playing the game. The core rules are mechanics. The only person performing the mechanics is the DM.

That's my point - the DM in your example is not performing the mechanics. IMO, DMs and players only choose what mechanics to apply. Since dice are random, in any game using dice only the laws of probability actually "perform the mechanics", to use your phrase. So if the DM rolls all the dice, the players roll all the dice, a computer rolls all the dice, or Gary Gygax drops by your house to roll all the dice, it's all exactly the same, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That would bug me. Even when playing by post and using an online dice roller, I still want to feel that I'm the master of my fate.

I hate using online dice rollers for PbPs. They're slow enough as it is, without introducing the "Make a check", "I rolled X" loop every time a die roll is required!

I far prefer 'DM rolls all dice' in PbP.

-Hyp.

 

[Michael Morris]

Randomization is what makes RPG's (not just D&D) a game. Without them you aren't playing an RPG, you are playing an improv scene. Nothing wrong with that - I do it quite often, but it is a duck, it quacks and shouldn't be called a goose

 

[The Levitator]

Since it was my quote that helped start the thread, I thought I would join in the fun.

for the record, our group was just as skeptical of going diceless as any other would be, myself included. We did it as an experiment to speed up combat. Not only did it do that, but it had an interesting side effect. With the mechanics tucked away more, we were all compelled to make decisions based on descriptions, perceptions, and roleplaying; not numbers. It really enhanced our experience of "gaming". I've said in a ton of other threads that we realize it isn't for everyone. But it does work for a lot of people. I've helped a couple people from here at ENworld, a couple from the WotC boards and several at the DM Genie boards adopt our style of gameplay. So far, everyone has liked it. But they were at least initially open to the idea first. I'm not ever going to impose or proclaim our way as "best' for anyone but us. The key to any group is finding a ruleset and style that works best for your group. What started out as an experiement for us became our preferred way of playing. Nobody in our group cares whether a little piece of plastic determines the number or a random number generator in a computer program. What's important to us are the consequences of those numbers and the decisions we make based on those consequences. If you feel that throwing dice is important to your experience of the game, then you shouldn't try to play diceless, because no matter what the benefits may be of playing diceless, you won't be able to enjoy it because you didn't want to part with them in the first place.

I can only speak from experience and the feedback I get from my players (most of which play in other groups too) and other people who game like we do. For us, it's about the story, how the characters fit into the story and how their decisions and actions affect that story. The numbers to us only represent a mechanical tool in which to resolve complex issues in as fair a way as possible. The people in my group prefer diceless to dice gaming, and probably each for their own reasons. It doesn't mean we are any less "gamers" than anyone. In fact, some would argue that we are more 'gamist' because we don't fudge our results for any reason. Our game logs are printed and posted on our group site every week, so there is no "fudging" on either side of the table. Dice are just a tool of the game. Sometimes different tools can accomplish the same task without throwing the world off its axis. In the end, it's just a game to us that gives us old coots a way to have some fun doing something together that some of us have been doing since the late 70's. Many of us use chat now instead of phones, but we still consider it conversation. Just because we changed the tool, it doesn't change the fact that we are still communicating. Whether chatting on the computer or talking on the phone, what's important to us is the conversation, not the tool we choose to have the conversation.

 

[Mallus]

If you allow a non-thief to climb a wall, what you're playing isn't an AD&D game any longer. -Hyp.

Thus demonstrating that people said stupid things about D&D long before Internet access was commonplace...

Defining 'playing D&D' in such a way that it means no-one is actually playing D&D is silly.

 

[DonTadow]

Since it was my quote that helped start the thread, I thought I would join in the fun.

for the record, our group was just as skeptical of going diceless as any other would be, myself included. We did it as an experiment to speed up combat. Not only did it do that, but it had an interesting side effect. With the mechanics tucked away more, we were all compelled to make decisions based on descriptions, perceptions, and roleplaying; not numbers.

True, I know I've read you say this in other forums, I think I comented on it in dmgenie about how cool it is and how my group would never go for it, but its still cool.

I am interested to know what do people think the "playing of the game" aspect. To me, the dice rolling is the game part of d and d. Its the part thats covered in the rules. Decision making, descriptions and role playing arent covered by the rules.

I want to make sure that the question doesn't mean, "are you really playing dungeons and dragons" but are you playing a game if you do not perform your own mechanics yourself. YOu're

 

[The Levitator]

Randomization is what makes RPG's (not just D&D) a game. Without them you aren't playing an RPG, you are playing an improv scene. Nothing wrong with that - I do it quite often, but it is a duck, it quacks and shouldn't be called a goose

Um, we use DM Genie's autoroll feature to determine the results of actions. There is every bit of randomness in our game as anyone else's. Form the sound of it, there may even be more randomization and gaming, because we don't fudge the results we are given. To me, fudging is more detrimental to a true "game" experience than anything. I believe that, as soon as you fudge one roll, you aren't gaming anymore, but storytelling. Am I right? Only at my table. Just because I see fudging that way doesn't mean it means the same thing to everyone else. Some see it as a necessary mechanic, encouraged by the DMG to keep the game going. I think it's important when having this discussion, to have a more clear definition of what we are discussing so that people aren't making uninformed statements.

We don't do what some call "free roleplay". My understanding is that "free roleplay" is roleplaying that uses no mechanical system to determine success or failure of actions. Instead, the actions are all roleplayed out. We use the exact same mechanics as a standard game, but instead of using dice, we use an option built into DM Genie that makes the rolls for us. So there is the same amount of randomization in our game as a standard game with dice. I just wanted to be clear on that.

 

[Mallus]

Without them you aren't playing an RPG, you are playing an improv scene.

Is it just me or have a lot of people been fetishizing dice lately?

Dice are part of a task resolution system. There are others. The simplest is usually called 'DM fiat'. Player informs DM their of their character's intended action. DM supplies the result. Task resolved.

This happens in every game, anytime the DM decides that a roll isn't necessary. Which the RAW suggests that you do. I think there's a fairly wide gulf between 'going diceless' and 'improv'.

Besides, it seems, well, silly to say that the game stops being a game as soon as the dice are (literally) taken off the table. That would mean most gaming sessions would phase in and out of being 'games' like Kitty Pride after a weekend bender.

...but it is a duck, it quacks and shouldn't be called a goose

It's more like you're calling a duck a fish because you find them in water...

 

[jmucchiello]

Randomization is what makes RPG's (not just D&D) a game. Without them you aren't playing an RPG, you are playing an improv scene. Nothing wrong with that - I do it quite often, but it is a duck, it quacks and shouldn't be called a goose

So when kids play cops and robbers, they are amateur thespians in training? When little girls play house, somehow they are not Role-Playing? I sorry, but for there to be a role-playing game all that is required is that there is are roles being played and the outcome is unknown at the beginning. I don't see how dice or no dice changes the activity.