D&D 5E Aren't Short Rest classes *better* in "story-based" games rather than dungeon crawls?

Whether or not you can wait is certainly situational. If you are dungeoneering, you probably can't. If you are exploring the Wilderness, maybe depending on supplies, weather, and such. In a Borderland situation similar to the construction warlock above, probably. In a Civilized area, usually.

Has anyone discussed what feels balanced? What should a player expect when they make a warlock given exploring hostile environments vs. crossing the Wilderness? I think I've seen comments of 2-3 short rests per day is the most that can be expected for [reasons]. Isn't the monk a mainly short rest driven class as well with their ki points?
 

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Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
Whether or not you can wait is certainly situational. If you are dungeoneering, you probably can't. If you are exploring the Wilderness, maybe depending on supplies, weather, and such. In a Borderland situation similar to the construction warlock above, probably. In a Civilized area, usually.

Has anyone discussed what feels balanced? What should a player expect when they make a warlock given exploring hostile environments vs. crossing the Wilderness? I think I've seen comments of 2-3 short rests per day is the most that can be expected for [reasons]. Isn't the monk a mainly short rest driven class as well with their ki points?
Depending on campaign style the Warlock player may be able to purposefully influence the number of short rests. Taking cooks tools, specializing in soups that require simmering, and RPing meal time is a great way to ensure that mealtimes are extended enough to count as rests, while simultaneously adding color and fun to the game. Or a loremaster might skip the usual post-dinner campfire social activities to read, and reading explicitly qualifies for a short rest. Or for a more mechanical option, being an Elf gives you four free short rests while everyone else finishes their long rest. Either approach is good for reliably getting extra castings of spammable spells.

For example, an Elf Great Old One Warlock can cast Sending 8 times to check in with contacts while the party finishes their long rest, helping the party keep much better informed of ongoing events. (Of course, depending on playstyle keeping up on ongoing events can range from a game-changing strategic strength to utterly unhelpful, so your mileage may vary.) Or an Elf Dao Warlock can litter the countryside with concealled fortifications, making a new one each night (take the Mold Earth cantrip for added construction options).

In other words, I don't think it's possible to establish a reasonable expected baseline. Too much will vary by campaign style, including how player-driven the campaign is, whether rests are incidental or require declaration, the use of doomclocks, and even how often mealtime is a thing and not glossed over.
 
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Whether or not you can wait is certainly situational. If you are dungeoneering, you probably can't. If you are exploring the Wilderness, maybe depending on supplies, weather, and such. In a Borderland situation similar to the construction warlock above, probably. In a Civilized area, usually.

Has anyone discussed what feels balanced? What should a player expect when they make a warlock given exploring hostile environments vs. crossing the Wilderness? I think I've seen comments of 2-3 short rests per day is the most that can be expected for [reasons]. Isn't the monk a mainly short rest driven class as well with their ki points?
IME so long as short rests happen sometimes it's not usually an issue, or at least not the issue. The rest system breaks down at edge cases (LR after every encounter, and probably if you have some insane number of encounters fighter come to totally dominate or some such).

The threshold is less "everyone is using up all their resources" and more "everyone is thinking before spending their resources." If you have the later, no one really shines too bright because they have too many or too few spell slots.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
IME so long as short rests happen sometimes it's not usually an issue, or at least not the issue. The rest system breaks down at edge cases (LR after every encounter, and probably if you have some insane number of encounters fighter come to totally dominate or some such).

The threshold is less "everyone is using up all their resources" and more "everyone is thinking before spending their resources." If you have the later, no one really shines too bright because they have too many or too few spell slots.
One thing I tend to find is that players tend to spend resources like spell slots and action surges much faster than their hp.
 

Depending on campaign style the Warlock player may be able to purposefully influence the number of short rests. Taking cooks tools, specializing in soups that require simmering, and RPing meal time is a great way to ensure that mealtimes are extended enough to count as rests, while simultaneously adding color and fun to the game.

Well, as a baseline, I would expect short rests to include mealtimes so a lunch and dinner would be two times a short rest would be expected. There are some logistical concerns regarding local hostiles, but if that's addressed you're fine.

Or a loremaster might skip the usual post-dinner campfire social activities to read, and reading explicitly qualifies for a short rest.

If you are using an ability then you are not resting, by definition. If they're just reading then what does it matter?

Or for a more mechanical option, being an Elf gives you four free short rests while everyone else finishes their long rest. Either approach is good for reliably getting extra castings of spammable spells.

If you are using an ability then you are not resting, by definition. If they're looking for 4-8 castings of a spell overnight, fine, but then it's a time span greater than four hours.

For example, an Elf Great Old One Warlock can cast Sending 8 times to check in with contacts while the party finishes their short rest, helping the party keep much better informed of ongoing events. (Of course, depending on playstyle keeping up on ongoing events can range from a game-changing strategic strength to utterly unhelpful, so your mileage may vary.)...

In other words, I don't think it's possible to establish a reasonable expected baseline. Too much will vary by campaign style, including how player-driven the campaign is, whether rests are incidental or require declaration, the use of doomclocks, and even hour often mealtime is a thing and not glossed over.

Okay, assuming you meant "long rest" in the example above, I could see that. It would take a total of 5 hours or so in my game, but I see your point.

I think it is possible to establish a baseline, not that hard, and indeed necessary. I think that it is important for the players and DM to have an understanding of the capabilities of the classes. In order to do that you need to have an understanding of time and costs in the campaign. Power and capabilities must come at a definable cost, otherwise you have a situation that can be absurdly exploited.

Is 59 minutes enough for a short rest? (Casting the spell(s) and the resting for the balance)
Is 61 minutes close enough to 60 that we're not going to care?
Are we really going to keep track of minutes? (Of course not)
Does the warlock, and every other class that relies on short rests, having access to about 16 power refreshes during the day appropriate to the balance of the other classes?
If not, what would be a good number? 12? 8? 4?

These are decisions that we are capable of reaching. We might not all agree on the exact number, but a concordance is not unreasonable. And, if after a few sessions it turns out to be untenable then adjust the number after a discussion at the table. The point of the warlock, it seems to me, is that the class has few active options but can mini-nova sporadically. While you're not going to get a 1:1 balance with other classes, we are capable to choose a point of balance and then adjust as appropriate.

Looking at the rules and wringing our hands in indecision is not helpful. (Not directed specifically at you, Xetheral, but in general.)
 

Horwath

Hero
5min short rests in 4E were good,
1hr short rests in 5E are horrible.

Either they need to go back to 5min officially(one of the most common house rules) or they need to be eliminated completely.

99% of the time when you can take a short rest, you can take a long one.
 


5 minutes for a short rest is practically no time, and would be unbalancing.
It's fine. But you need to put a limit on the number per day (I do 2)

You do that and the game is actually significantly improved.

So much so, and with no downsides, that having tried it, the idea of returning to the 1 hour short rest would seem perverse.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
It's fine. But you need to put a limit on the number per day (I do 2)

You do that and the game is actually significantly improved.

So much so, and with no downsides, that having tried it, the idea of returning to the 1 hour short rest would seem perverse.
Why 5 minutes, though? Why not just make it instantaneous?
 


It's fine. But you need to put a limit on the number per day (I do 2)

You do that and the game is actually significantly improved.

So much so, and with no downsides, that having tried it, the idea of returning to the 1 hour short rest would seem perverse.
Interesting.

It goes against my grain, but if there is a hard limit I can see it from a mechanistic perspective. I find an hour more diagetically pleasing, and the conceit of "if we can take an hour we can take eight" to be fairly rare in my games.

Thinking about this, and the relative paucity of my running 5e, it seems that the only real time that I would consider short rests to be strongly abusable is while the PCs are investigating, researching, or resting in Civilization. If your travelling it seems like you would lose too much progress if someone was determined to take 4-6 short rests during the day.

I would much prefer short rests to be mostly eliminated. I can appreciate the ability to "take a breather" and chug down some sour Ophirian wine to clear the dust from the throat (and gain some hp back). Fighters and thieves having short rests to recharge abilities (stretching, limbering, whatever) would be fine.
 


Asisreo

Patron Badass
It basically is (like in 4e). It's not like I'm counting the seconds. It's a moment for a breather.

The only thing that really matters is that you can't do it in combat.
But doesn't that buff casters pretty considerably?

For example, a strong spell like Conjure Animals usually wouldn't last after a short rest, but with that rule, a spellcaster could cast a spell like that and still have access to it after the short rest. The druid could be under their effects the entire dungeon crawl, meaning they could be extremely powerful for multiple combats with only one spell slot.
 

But doesn't that buff casters pretty considerably?

For example, a strong spell like Conjure Animals usually wouldn't last after a short rest, but with that rule, a spellcaster could cast a spell like that and still have access to it after the short rest. The druid could be under their effects the entire dungeon crawl, meaning they could be extremely powerful for multiple combats with only one spell slot.
I haven't noticed it as doing so, no.

That's the sort of edge case that needs very specific circumstances to happen. (If you use something like B/X's turn based exploration then that's only 6 Dungeon turns anyway).

As far as any Warlock spells that might have durations longer than 5 minutes, I've always ruled that you can't regain a spell slot if the spell is still active. You kind of need to do that if you're messing with the rest structure at all.
 
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Asisreo

Patron Badass
As far as any Warlock spells that might have durations longer than 5 minutes, I've always ruled that you can't regain a spell slot if the spell is still active. You kind of need to do that if you're messing with the rest structure at all.
Well that's a bit harsh. I would've thought you'd do it the other way around and end the spell prematurely but still give them the slot.

Well, it's not like I'm playing in your games so if that's truly fun for your warlock players, then meh.
 

Well that's a bit harsh. I would've thought you'd do it the other way around and end the spell prematurely but still give them the slot.

Well, it's not like I'm playing in your games so if that's truly fun for your warlock players, then meh.
Well yeah you can do that too. That's basically the same thing! If you maintain the spell you don't get the slot back, if you don't you do.

The point is you can't have a spell active and have a full array of spell slots.

It's more a problem that comes about when you meddle with long rests. Eg. Mage Armour becomes useless if using Gritty Realism and Animate Dead eats up a spell slot every 24 hours but you are no longer getting it back. So it's just easier to say that maintaining these spells requires the commitment of a slot, but they are otherwise indefinite.
 

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