ARG Improved Grab & Constrict KILL SMASH

[Sektat]

Excellent pictures!
One point:
> If it succeeds, it deals unarmed strike damage (1d4+4 nonlethal for large size)
> plus claw damage and constrict damage

I think the claw damage *replaces* the 1d4+4 nonlethal damage (IF the monster has improved grap). In Part 4 of "all about grappling" from WotC it says (under improved grap):

> Each successful grapple check the attacker makes during successive
> rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that
> established the hold. (This works just like making a grapple check
> to deal damage.)

The "(This works just like making a grapple check to deal damage.)" - part lead me to the conclusion that you don't get the size-dependent damage in addition.

I agree with the constriction damage.

 

[blargney the second]

Yay! Storytime with pictures!

Does it do the sting in addition to claw attacks or instead of them? (Since scorpions actually do grab & sting prey, it doesn't sound remotely counter-intuitive.)

Does it really do nonlethal damage + claw + constrict when it succeeds on a grapple check to do damage on its own turn? I would have expected that the claw damage would replace the nonlethal damage...

 

[Sektat]

And another point:

> Next round the scorpion can chose to make a natural attack at -4 with it's sting

I think he can attack with his sting and his 2 claws (claws at -9 IF they are the secondary, or the other way around).

Again from "all about grappling", part 2:

> Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed
> strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character
> you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

> You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both
> are light weapons. If you have multiple natural weapons, however, you can
> use all of them while grappling.

So it seems that even with the claw that you used to etablish the hold you can use in the "attack your opponent" option.

 

[frankthedm]

Excellent pictures!
One point:
> If it succeeds, it deals unarmed strike damage (1d4+4 nonlethal for large size)
> plus claw damage and constrict damage

I think the claw damage *replaces* the 1d4+4 nonlethal damage (IF the monster has improved grap).

That is not what the MM text calls for.

In Part 4 of "all about grappling" from WotC it says (under improved grap):

> Each successful grapple check the attacker makes during successive
> rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that
> established the hold. (This works just like making a grapple check
> to deal damage.)

The "(This works just like making a grapple check to deal damage.)" - part lead me to the conclusion that you don't get the size-dependent damage in addition.

That article has taken to task many times because it has made rules up that don't exist. What you quoted is a fine example of that.

Does it do the sting in addition to claw attacks or instead of them? (Since scorpions actually do grab & sting prey, it doesn't sound remotely counter-intuitive.)

The sting could happen in the normal full attack routine, BUT if if the claw does establish a hold, the grapple commences immediately and thus the remaining claw attack and sting attack is lost. There has been some mention from wotc that natural attacks don't need to be taken in order of primary /secondary, but I’ve never really looked into that. So the Scorpion might be able to take the secondary sting attack, then make it's claw attacks, but even that is not how scopions attack IRL.

Does it really do nonlethal damage + claw + constrict when it succeeds on a grapple check to do damage on its own turn? I would have expected that the claw damage would replace the nonlethal damage...

What I posted is how the ability reads. The suggestion in the rules of the game article is reasonable, but it is not the rules until it gets into the errata or the rules compendium.

And another point:

> Next round the scorpion can chose to make a natural attack at -4 with it's sting

I think he can attack with his sting and his 2 claws (claws at -9 IF they are the secondary, or the other way around).

Again from "all about grappling", part 2:

> Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed
> strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character
> you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

> You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both
> are light weapons. If you have multiple natural weapons, however, you can
> use all of them while grappling.

So it seems that even with the claw that you used to etablish the hold you can use in the "attack your opponent" option.

The suggestion in the rules of the game article is reasonable, but it is not the rules until it gets into the errata or the rules compendium. Currently if a creature has natural attacks and is grappling, it can only ever take one natural attack in that round.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That is not what the MM text calls for.

Hmm?

If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

 

[frankthedm]

Hmm?

That was to the notion that the improved grabbing weapon's damage replaces the unarmed strike's damage when said grabber is in grapple and using the "damage opponent" option of grappling. The text sure as heck to me indicates the succesfull grapple check is what bring down the claw and constrict damage on the grabbed victim. Thus if it Pins, the succesfull grapple check also adds injury to insult as the victim eats 2d6+8 in addition to being pinned for a round.

 

[blargney the second]

So I sat down with the PHB & MM last night, and I think I've got grappling, improved grab, and constrict all sorted out to my satisfaction. Your explanations here helped a lot. Thank you!

... except for one thing: "Constrict (Ex): A creature [deals] damage after making a successful grapple check."

What the heck does that mean? It's wide open to interpretation. Help me Obi-Wan!

 

[frankthedm]

So I sat down with the PHB & MM last night, and I think I've got grappling, improved grab, and constrict all sorted out to my satisfaction. Your explanations here helped a lot. Thank you!

... except for one thing: "Constrict (Ex): A creature [deals] damage after making a successful grapple check."

What the heck does that mean? It's wide open to interpretation. Help me Obi-Wan!

I say that the 'constrict happens only on its grapple checks during it's actions, not the grapple checks it opposes. I use the following text to sort it out, notably the part about successive rounds.

If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

But if the DM really wants to apply the constrict damageto the grapple checks the scoprpion opposes, like say with the victim tries to break grapple, he can't be faulted based on the wording.

 

[blargney the second]

Works for me. Thanks, frank.

 

[Darklone]

However, the Half-Dragon Colossal Scorpion... he can fly, too.

Cheers, -- N

You don't need to be faster than the monster, you need to be faster than the next best alternative victim