ARG Improved Grab & Constrict KILL SMASH

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That was to the notion that the improved grabbing weapon's damage replaces the unarmed strike's damage when said grabber is in grapple and using the "damage opponent" option of grappling.

That's how I've always played it.

Normal: Unarmed strike
Normal + Constrict: Unarmed strike + constrict damage
Improved Grab: Natural weapon damage
Improved Grab + Constrict: Natural weapon damage + constrict damage

Honestly, I've never imagined any other way to read that line.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Honestly, I've never imagined any other way to read that line.

It all comes down to how you read the "after making a successful grapple check".

If you include an implicit "to damage the opponent" in that sentence, then it makes sense for the claw damage to replace the unarmed strike damage.

But if you don't, there are a couple of other ways "after making a successful grapple check" is read. One is "after succeeding at a task that requires a grapple check" - which means it triggers if you successfully pin, if you successfully break a grapple, if you successfully retrieve spell components, and so on. The other is "after beating your opponent in an opposed grapple check", which covers all of the above, plus successfully resisting a pin, preventing them breaking the grapple, preventing them retrieving spell components, etc.

Now, if we read "after making a successful grapple check" in either of these ways, we have the following:

Without Improved Grab:
Pin: pins opponent.
Retrieve spell components: retrieves spell components.
Break grapple: breaks the grapple.
Damage opponent: deals unarmed strike damage.

With Improved Grab:
Pin: pins opponent, plus claw damage.
Retrieve spell components: retrieves spell components, plus claw damage.
Break grapple: breaks the grapple, plus claw damage.
Damage opponent: deals unarmed strike damage, plus claw damage.

... does it make sense in this case for the damage opponent action to lose utility, unlike all the other actions? It doesn't, so it should still have its normal effect - deal unarmed strike damage - in addition to the claw damage.

I personally read "after making a successful grapple check" in this context to mean "after making a successful grapple check to damage your opponent", which means that pin just pins, and break grapple just breaks the grapple, but damage opponent replaces poor non-lethal unarmed strike damage with savage lethal natural weapon damage - a clear benefit to taking the damage opponent option.

But if you take one of the broader readings, damage opponent (without unarmed strike damage) becomes pointless, because every other option requiring a grapple check does everything damage opponent does, plus more. If the unarmed strike damage remains part of the effect, however, there's still a reason to choose that option.

-Hyp.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I am curious, what parts of the text brought you to that conclusion?

As Hyp put it; "after succeeding at a task that requires a grapple check" with the addition that the constrict damage only applies once per round. In my mind this is the best interpretation of the vague text while keeping potential loopholes closed. Its also the easiest to handle in play. Simply apply the listed contrict damage at the end of the round if the critter is still in a grapple.

No mess, no fuss. Might not be the 'right' way, but I think there is enough lee-way in the RAW for this version.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I personally read "after making a successful grapple check" in this context to mean "after making a successful grapple check to damage your opponent", which means that pin just pins, and break grapple just breaks the grapple, but damage opponent replaces poor non-lethal unarmed strike damage with savage lethal natural weapon damage - a clear benefit to taking the damage opponent option.

Yep - that's how I've always run it.