Armies of the Abyss??

[Psion]

Are you saying WotC is any better at CRs? Are you saying that the CR system as a whole works well? I'm just trying to gauge your opinion here, because I don't believe either of those questions to have the answer yes.

Let me take a chance to disagree with this all too popular carnard.

The CR system does work well, in my considered experience... or at least as well as it could be expected to work. There have been times that I have said to myself "they can handle that" and threw a too-tough encounter at a party, and found out after the fact that I should have more carefully taken into account the CR system's conclusion.

Now the catch is this: CR is NOT a substitute for your knowledge of the party. It is a starting point. But you should always ask yourself "does this creature have any features that would make it strong or weak against my particular party or in the situation they will face it in."

For example, the collossal scorpion is oft derided as a mis-estimate of CR. But consider the abilities that a party of that level has, namely flight and invisibility. The scorpion isn't going to be much of a threat. Now if you apply Monte's insect modifiers to it, and hem the PCs in somewhere, it is going to be a living terror. But that is what the EL modifiers are for. About 75% of the anecdotes I have heard about how off the CR system is could be addressed by considering the situation and applying the EL modifiers.

Similarly, the Grick is going to be a real threat if the players don't have +1 weapons by the time they encounter it.

There are some rough spots, for example, template and class combinations that are particularly weak or strong. For example, half dragon template is a little understated when applied to small creatures (yeah, half-red dragon grasshoppers... that's the ticket!). And if your twisted little mind comes up with the evil synergy that is half-fiendish trolls, you should know that it probably deserves a CR bump or two.

So for that question, I think the answer is yes.

For the second question, yeah, I think that there are some problem CRs in LoH. For example, some of the lower end creatures deal a very high amount of damage for their CR. However, in general, I think the creatures are well done. Unlike many other books (parts of AEG's Dugneons... that is, all the creature Mearls didn't make), the creatures herein don't seem to have arbitrary skills, stats, and HP modifiers.

 

[Warchild]

I'd really like to know what mechanical problems you are having that could possibly make what was one of the best supplements to the game yet released stay on the shelf. CRs? I'm not following here...

I think thats interesting. You automatically assume its going to be the best supplement ever and it hasn't been released yet. Did you write it or something?
Or were you talking about Legions of Hell, which i obviously did buy.
At least i plan to look at it before i decide if it stays on the shelf. If it has mechanics problems or just plain typos, it will do just that. I have no more patience for companies that have been around a while now and still don't get it done. It remains to be seen if thats describes Green Ronin for me. I like their writing, so they get a chance.

WOTC's Cr's? Well they seem to have a better grip on the low to mid-end stuff, but there is some problems with their high stuff as well. I know i am not alone, or just some "crazy loner" on this subject, though.

You bring up a good point though, when you say that Green Ronin is as good as anyone's stuff. Thats exactly my point. I'm not going to buy things anymore because, hey "they aren't any worse than anyone else's stuff". I was willing to think that way when D20 first came out and everyone was getting a grip on things, but that phase is gone now, i expect quality in all phases of a product before i'll spend my money. But i certaintly didn't mean to highlight just Green Ronin. Sword & Sorcery gets the same treatment, as their stuff is constantly filled with errors, typos, and questionable game mechanics(most notably their prestige classes). I am getting to like the Scarred Lands quite a bit, but if i see a glut of mistakes in their next supplement while giving it a cursory glance at the game store, i am no longer buying it.

I may be just some hapless duck in whirlwind, but i am taking a stand. If we don't stop buying lower quality books, the companies won't have the incentive to clean up their books. If we complain, but still buy them all, you don't get a change!
I've been labled a jerk because of this, but that doesn't phase me at all anymore. I'm also getting sick of the, "hey give us a break, we are trying" crap. If you put out 8 products in a row and they all have abunch of screw ups, i ain't buying it anymore. That makes sense to me, if no one else!!

"Hey, buddy, i konw the car has some break problems and the bullet holes could be a problem, but we did our best. The next car you buy from us will be a little better, we swear!!"

"Hey, mr. customer, sure a a bunch of the condoms in this package will probably be faulty, but the next batch will have fewer duds. Honest!" Great! Only next time i come to the store to get condoms, i won't need them.....i'll need diapers. Gee, thanks.





........Now i am really in a bad mood. I got a game tonight, too.
I guess i'll throw a creature at them with an equal CR rating, WITHOUT checking to see if the creature is over powered!! That'll teach them!!!

 

[Wolfspider]

Make it a dragon.

 

[Warchild]

ouch!!

Yikes! I don't know if i'm THAT pissed off!!
Hmmm.........giant wolf spider...........hmmmmmm

 

[Information]

I sincerely hope it won't be the last in the series. Oh, one other thing... Pramas rules.

I haven't looked at Legions of Hell, but his 2nd Ed. Supplememt Guide to Hell was lacking in effort, both in the art and material.

Why WotC adopted everything therein about the archdevils, as opposed to the 1st Ed. archdevils, is beyond me.

 

[Information]

About Guide to Hell.

As a DM I found it particularly disturbing that Asmodeus would be made a greater god (in 2nd Ed. there was very little a greater god could not do), while the archdevils (as well as "the Hag Countess"... a poor replacement for Moloch) were about the equivalent of a greater avatar.

 

[Psion]

I haven't looked at Legions of Hell, but his 2nd Ed. Supplememt Guide to Hell was lacking in effort, both in the art and material.

Thanks for your review of A Guide to Hell. Now I will draw your attention to the topic at hand, which is Legions of Hell.

Ahem... anyway, I too was disappointed by the GTH thing (Asmodeus an overpower? Yeesh!) However, Legions of Hell is not so inflexible and works well within the existing assumptions about the hells. The only thing that is similarly out of place is the Judeo-Christian-Islamic inspired angelic hosts... an that is tweakable and/or ingnorable (and either way, I like the fallen celestial template.)

 

[Desdichado]

I think thats interesting. You automatically assume its going to be the best supplement ever and it hasn't been released yet. Did you write it or something?
Or were you talking about Legions of Hell, which i obviously did buy.
At least i plan to look at it before i decide if it stays on the shelf. If it has mechanics problems or just plain typos, it will do just that. I have no more patience for companies that have been around a while now and still don't get it done. It remains to be seen if thats describes Green Ronin for me. I like their writing, so they get a chance.

I was talking about LOH, and maybe I made a logical assumption that you didn't intend to make, but you suggested that if LOH was new, you wouldn't buy it because of problems with the CRs. To me, that's the least of my worries. Do I look at CRs to get a rough estimate of what to toss at a party? Sure! Do I follow them as doctrine, and use the experience tables exactly as printed? No, I wouldn't. I don't think they're anywhere near precise enough, and it doesn't take into account variables and situations that may make an encounter easier or harder than it would otherwise be. Therefore, I use CRs as a --as we say in my industry-- swag: no more, no less. Therefore, having one that is a little off is almost to be expected, not condemned.

As for some of the other mechanical aspects that are often (although not specifically, I might note, by you) criticized are things like hit dice progression, having the right hit dice for the monster type, choosing the appropriate monster type given the description of the creature, etc. I think these are all baloney criticisms. Sure, they may technically be wrong, but so what? Does it work? If all I have to do is rename the monster type to satisfy some pedantic's idea of somebody's semantics, that's not a problem in my book.

Harumph! Now I'm in a bad mood about nit-pickiness. Not only that, the original question I posed here remains unanswered: when is the book supposed to ship?

 

[A2Z]

Everything I can find says it's out this month. I think I remember seeing an add in Dragon that said the same thing. Wether that means the begining of the month or the end remains to be seen. I'll be happy as long as it's out before the end of the month. This reminds me; I need to get a subscription to Dungeon so I can get my free Legions of Hell.

 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Over all how good would you guys say Green Ronin's products are compared to the other non-wizards stuff. Is it better on avage than sword&sorcery, AEG, etc.
I tend to be a little locked in on wizards of the coast products, but want to get out of that habit, before I miss some real quality suppliments.