Armor as Damage Reduction (how to make it work for you)

I'm going to state what I think I know about the "real" stuff that one might want to try to model. This is useful because it helps determine the model or if one really wants to leap into the morass at all.

My opinion comes from years of amature hoplology, both practical and theoretical. I am no expert, but if nothing else, I can instruct by being obviously wrong. This is not going to be organized.

First, there has always been a race between protection and weaponry.
Second, protection has often fallen somewhat short of what weaponry of a given era can do. Otherwise, there would be no need to learn defense--just rely upon armor (more on that later).

The major limit upon armor seems to have always been cost. The richest could afford armor that was effective against the majority of attacks at a given period of history (up to a point). But even then, armor could be defeated. The proof of this is that skill was never abandoned.

The effectiveness of plate has long been known. However, the expense of making plate armor made it prohibitive for much of human history. Mail is a good compromise, since it is very hard to cut, and well-made mail (riveted, not that "butted mail" one sees in SCA) can significantly slow down a piercing thrust weapon. However, the fundamental defense of the mail era was skill. This is because a good hauberk could still permit a man to be slain were he hit with a well-swung axe or sword or a well-placed spear. Instead, armor would be to protect against "almost kills"--blows that were not spot-on but could skitter off the armor since they weren't at a perfect angle. Thus, while a "true blow" could still kill a man in full Norman get-up, his armor would protect him against attacks that would slay an unarmored man outright. Likewise, while leather wouldn't save a man from some blows that a man in mail could survive, at least they could reduce the effect of the attack. In this era, the massive weapons were the two-handed bearded axe of the Saxon Huscarle and the lance of the Norman knight. A good hit from either would finish a man in the best armor of the day. A longbow was a threat to both, but archers were lightly-protected, so you would want to ride them down. In the hurley-burley of melee, skill with your horse, your body, and your weapons (a shield is a weapon) is what would save your life.

In the transitional era, plate gradually replaced mail and weapons got heavier. The canted saddle permitted lancers to hit even harder (not stirrups--M. Richard Alvarez of Texas has researched this question hands-on very extensively--stirrups permit a man to steer the horse while both hands were busy. The saddle canting is what permits a solid shock attack.). Swords got larger and eventually went to two-handed use. Ultimately, we got to the ascendancy of full plate in the 15th century, which could still be penetrated by pike, lance, and the new devil-weapon (firearms).

By the era of the man-in-a-can, no single-handed weapon could be relied upon to actually penetrate armor. Even two-handed swords were considered inadequate to the task. German swordmasters of the 15th century taught that the cut was used against lightly-armored enemies. Against a man in proper armor, choke up on the weapon and use it like a spear, seeking the weaker armor at the joints--do not try to penetrate the plates, it was not considered practical. This was the era of the great honking pole-arm, full of spiky bits and enormous blades that were swung with great momentum (and used with great skill). Even so, in this era, skill was still considered the sovereign defense. Relying on your armor was not considered safe, and the full-armor era masters taught dagger techniques, since if an armpit or collar would admit a spear, it would admit a ballocks knife. Firearms were so powerful that they were greatly despised by the knightly class, since they could actually penetrate this armor and didn't require generations of training to use. In 1524, the very last chevalier sans peur et sans reproche, Pierre Terrail, Seigneur de Bayard, was slain by just such a bullet. During his life he executed every gunner he ever captured, on the spot. The poet Lodovico Ariosto summed up the power of the firearm unintentionally in his Orlando Furiouso:

O wretched and foul invention, how did you ever find place in a human heart? Through you the soldier's glory is destroyed, through you the business of arms is without honor, through you valor and courage are brought low, for often the bad man seems better than the good; through you valor no more, daring no more can come to a test in the field.
.

By "bad man", Ariosto meant "commoner". "Good man" meant "nobleman who has devoted his life to the skill of arms".
 

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Dogbrain. Thank you for that. Taking the time to read your brief history was very informative. I love the history of combat. I had read some of that history before, but from different sources. Never all at once.

After reading your post, I have come to a decision about the variant combat system I proposed (while still keeping a sharp eye on stylized simplicity).

-- Piercing weapons will halve the AC used as a damage reduction. Moreover, the Chink in the Armor feat will do the exact same thing, but as a move action.

-- Piercing weapons cannot be used to Power Attack (reasoned by not having the prerequisite "swing" of bludgeoning or slashing weapons to build up momentum).

I think those rules will approximate reality well enough for Dungeons and Dragons without slowing down the game. But piercing weapons will be the only exception. While its true that certain weapon types were historically better against certain armor types, the differences are nowhere near as pronounced as when piecing weapons are used against armor. A firearm (for those that use them in Dungeons and Dragons) will ignore armor as damage reduction altogether.
 

Forgive my ignorance, but would this style not lend itself better to electronic execution than with dice and a pencil? That would allow you to more effectively add in all matter of variables such as armor resistances to each weapon type, as well as allowing you to implement a bell curve and thus make average results more common than extremes(like critical hits)? It would seem a fairly simple program could incorporate even the most math intensive of maneuvers with ease, if not flair? You could even implement strength loss by loss of hitpoints on a dynamic enough level to be actually useable?

I always thought that the point of using so crude a method of dice rolling was to maintain simplicity. All you would need are a couple of out of date PDAs or a pair of linked laptops(one for the dm, one for the players). It would even add a bit of surprise back to what actions in a round each character takes without losing the round table camaraderie of pencil and paper gaming. Having a pair of moniters mounted in a table with the screens up at a slight angle and a stylus you could even better display art without having to print out every little landscape, portrait or vista thus allowing you to conserve your resources for truly interesting handouts. I myself make a very nice faux parchment.

The best part is that it could all be done on a shoestring budget using older hardware since it doesn't have to be up to date at all. Sure it boxes you int a war room(unless pdas or laptops are used) and the ability to game anywhere is something I cherish, but the thought is at least intrigueing, no?


Another thing, if you did change the way hp works couldn't you give all classes equal base hp depending on con, then give certain classes additional hp based on how martial the class is, and give certain classes limited damage reduction. I could see the fighter having attack abilities to compensate for being heavily armored, barbarians better hp and damage reduction(especially in a rage) and rogues high evade. Possibly even allow high con scores to add to DR.

I know if I ever get around to building my Fallout RPG it is the system I plan to use.

On another note I would very much like to learn more about how the SCA is not historically accurate. I was under the impression that they used reproductions of historical pieces.
 

Capn Charlie said:
Forgive my ignorance, but would this style not lend itself better to electronic execution than with dice and a pencil? That would allow you to more effectively add in all matter of variables such as armor resistances to each weapon type, as well as allowing you to implement a bell curve and thus make average results more common than extremes(like critical hits)?
I respectfully disagree, but mostly because you exaggerate. As I *just* stated, there would only be "one" armor resistance to weapon type exception. Piercing weapons would halve AC as damage reduction. Done. Easily role-played on the fly without any significant game stopping impact. If people need a computer program to make such a simplistic calculation for them, we really have become dependant on the technological age.

:rolleyes:
 

Wonderful thread. I've been wanting to use armor as DR for ages and have debated it back and forth with my players and in other message boards. sonofapreacherman's version is by far the most well reasoned, and thoroughly thought out arguement yet.

Still, my concerns, some of which have been addressed somewhat so far, some haven't, are...

1. Sneak attack - the biggest problem with this is that rogues can sneak attack, not just when opponent is denied DEX but also anytime they are flanking! Consider a rogue fighting with two weapons (using the two feats you require) and flanking an opponent. A few dies of sneak attack each weapon and OUCH!
2. Light weapon wielding concept warriors and small creatures get kinda screwed.
3. I fear this will lengthen combat too much, especially with the parry idea (which i like) being implemented.
4. As characters level up, particularly fighters, 'to hit' bonuses become pointless.

The things i love about your adaption are the DEX replacing STR for to hit rolls coupled with using max DEX bonus on armor for this, piercing weapons and chink in armor allowing half penetration, the parrying rule.
I also have no problem with criticals being easier to confirm, this will help penetrate DR easier and make for wilder combat.

I'm still not sure if i like the additional rules for two-weapon fighting. i think two-weapon fighting will already be at a disadvantage vs. armor as the weapons have to be lighter. I haven't really thought this out, but my gut says it looks like another level of complication that may not be necessary.

I know you are hesitant to add in to many new rules, however, i'd love to see a few other major changes incorporated into this system...
I think a combination of your armor as DR system + piecemeal armor + called shots could yeild a very vibrant combat system. It seems that some of the problems inherent with each system are addressed when they are combined. Anyone want to help me explore this idea? Maybe on a new thread.

- feydras
 

If "Parry" or some other "active" defense other than "fight defensively" is used, all character classes ought to have identical hit point determinations. Wizard/Rogue/Fighter/etc. all the same method. Then classes would have bonuses to their "Parry".
 

Sorry about the delay, I went on vacation. I should know better than to do that right after making a big post.

Well, right away, having an AC/DR of 10, while still enjoying a +6 Dexterity bonus doesn't make much sense to me. If I'm wearing enough armor to warrant an AC/DR of 10, then without the specifics, I can only assume that my Dexterity bonus should be close to nonexistent.

Well, I guess I wasn't too clear on the phrasing. It wasn't "+6 Dexterity bonus", it was "+6 is tied to your Dexterity bonus", as in "if you're denied your DEX bonus you'd lose 6". That includes things like Dodge bonuses and Haste. In fact, was using the Rogue in question against himself.

EC:
20 DEX (18 plus an item that gives +2): +5
Dodge feat: +1
Ring of Protection +4

AC:
+3 Studded Leather: +6 (Max DEX +5)
Amulet of Natural Armor +4

Besides, it gave nice round numbers. But, you could have had some of it come from spells (Haste and Barkskin), or Bracers of Armor, or a Wildshaped Druid, or some monster race from Savage Species... same resulting numbers, wildly different ways.

I need to know all of these things, as each detail plays an important role in this variant combat system. It makes a huge difference to the whole equation.

And that's what worried me enough to bring this up. In stock D&D, two characters with AC 30 are balanced, with no difference in defense. In your system, there can be huge differences between them, like you say. That was the crux of my argument. The specifics SHOULDN'T be important to the discussion.

while you have stacked the example with a 17th level rogue who caught their victim flatfooted

Doesn't have to be flat-footed. Rogues get their Sneak Attack dice when they flank a target, for example, and in my experience that's the far more likely situation (and flanking doesn't deny the defender his DEX bonus, either, just gives a +2 bonus). They'd get it against blinded or helpless targets, too, but if the target can't fight back the exact math becomes a bit irrelevant.

And, I was using a Rogue only to illustrate the extreme case. A high-level Fighter with a good magical sword would see the same situation to a lesser degree, especially if he uses the 2-handed 3.5E Power Attack to ramp up the damage. Note the example numbers I gave: if you hit for 25 damage 30% of the time, trading 5 AC for DR increases your average damage per attack from 7.5 to 11 points; a high-end Fighter with Power Attack can easily reach that 25 amount, it's just that a Rogue will reach it more quickly.

I could stack the example, rather simply, by giving your victim the Combat Reflexes and Defensive Focus feats.

Both of which are available to all the characters in this discussion, and therefore can't be used as a balancing point. And, on a more general level, requiring specific Feats to counteract a flaw in the system isn't good (not that that's what you're doing, of course). My critique was about the relative shift your system brings based on the type of the attacker, not the victim. I'll try to break it down point-by-point:

> If I have an opponent with a given AC, under the stock D&D system it's assumed that the various types of attackers will be balanced. Not identical, but balanced. Rogues, archers, and big tank Fighters are all viable choices as classes, and there are rarely situations where your attacks are utterly worthless (most of which are due to unusual abilities of the target, not a failing in your attacker).
People talk about the Rock-Paper-Scissors approach of D&D (Rogue beats Wizard beats Fighter beats Rogue), but none are completely neutered when going the wrong direction. It may not be "realistic" (the dagger-vs-plate example you gave comes to mind) but it's good for a balanced game.

> In 3E D&D, Power Attack was only useful if your average damage per hit was lower than (20 * your chance of hitting). Since this was practically impossible at high levels (chance of hitting caps at 100%), Power Attack's niche was mainly against opponents with DR you couldn't bypass, OR against enemies with ACs so low that you could still hit on a 2 even after Power Attacking.

> Trading "avoidance" (old AC / EC) for "mitigation" (new AC) on a 1-for-1 basis is the same as 3E Power Attacking in reverse.

> Therefore, if your average damage per hit is higher than (20 * your average chance of hitting), then trading AC (that's D&D AC, not yours) for DR will increase your average damage per attack. This is the reverse of the 3E Power Attack math. Introducing the AC/EC split as you've done basically does this.

I don't think any of the above points are really refutable, and they don't really depend on the specifics of the target.

Let's say there are three types of attackers:
GROUP 1: The high-damage types with bad BAB (Rogue, Monk, anyone who uses Power Attack, anyone with +damage weapons (Flaming, etc.), or the later attacks in a Full Attack series). These guys would ALWAYS benefit from your system; any character who has AC from Armor or Natural Armor (at the expense of EC) would take substantially more damage from these types than they would under 3E, unless the attacker had such a ridiculously high attack bonus that he'd have always hit (see also: Dragons).
It's ironic that the dagger-wielding Rogue does so well against the plate-clad Fighter, when you used it as the example in the other direction.

GROUP 2: The classes that hit consistently with high numbers of low-damage attacks (any archer, most swarms of small critters, non-Rogues using daggers). These guys would almost always be harmed by your system; against any character who has AC from Armor or Natural Armor, their damage drops straight to zero unless they:
> Load up on +damage enchantments like Flaming
> Get a Sneak Attack or Favored Enemy bonus
> Get a critical hit
> Take some sort of AC-bypassing attack like the psionic feat Fell Shot or your Chink in the Armor feat.

GROUP 3: The middle of the road (low-level Fighters, Barbarians, etc.) These guys see no real change.


This isn't always a bad thing; I like that a character can't just accumulate a huge AC and sit back behind their walls. But it's not a minor issue. Under your system, a fighter in full plate will be utterly invulnerable to archers and will be shredded by a Rogue, unless everyone takes the right combination of Feats/Skills/class abilities. This can be patched, but not by requiring people to take two or three specific Feats.

So, no critique should be complete without a set of suggestions:
1> Any "bonus effects" (Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy, Power Attack, Flaming weapons, plus nondamaging stuff like poison/disease/level drain attacks, etc.) only kick in if any of the base weapon damage got through the AC on its own.

So, if (weapon damage + enhancement bonus + STR mod) can't beat the target's AC, it's treated as a miss, no matter how many other damage sources you have stacked up.

This, right there, solves a lot of the situations I mentioned without ruining the flavor of the change. It still leaves one big one, though: the monster with 40 STR will always plow through your DR, but then again, he did that before too.

2> Add a general combat option "Aimed Shot" that allows attackers to bypass some AC by using a full-round action to make a single attack. I'd suggest -2 AC, min 0.
Don't require everyone to take a Feat for this. The melee types can already Feint, as you noted, but the archers need something.
2.1> Add some feats related to this ability, too. For example, here's a possible chain for archers to use:
Zen Archery: replaces the "-2" with your WIS modifier. It's entirely possible for AC to be reduced to zero this way.
Aimed Volley: can use iterative attacks on an Aimed Shot (so it's superior to a Full Attack)
maybe another one that lets you use it on "special" attacks like Rapid Shot or Manyshot, and then finally one that lets you get the bonus on normal attacks.
 

Spatzimaus.

I won't pretend to have followed every single point you made in that post, but I do want to thank you making it. Your thoughts are appreciated. It almost seemed like you were "thinking out loud", during some of it.

:)

That said, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here with my changes to Dungeons and Dragons combat (though it may seem that way). Since I replied to your post, a few additional details have been revealed or decided.

The most important of which is that piercing weapons halve AC as damage reduction. That includes arrows. But piecing weapons cannot be used to power attack, lacking the prerequisite swing of a bludgeon or slashing weapon to build up momentum.

The second important point to make about the variant combat system is that, with shields, EC is only a little smaller than the current values of AC. This is because shields offer a much greater bonus to EC than the printed version of AC (about twice as much in most cases). For example, a character can elect to gain a +4 bonus to EC from their heater shield, but then cannot parry with their shield that round (a trade off). A tower shield offers a +8 bonus to EC or complete cover, and cannot be used to parry at all (in additional to all the other penalties normally associated with tower shields).

In the printed rules, a character with 14 Dexterity, a chain shirt and heavy shield, has an AC of 10 + 2 + 4 + 2 = 18.

In the variant combat system, the same character has an EC of 10 + 2 + 4 = 16, or an EC of 10 + 2 = 12 if they want to parry with their shield (not to mention 4 points of damage reduction).

Moreover, light weapons gain a +4 on parry rolls, single-handed weapons gain no bonus, and two-handed weapons take a -4 penalty on parry rolls. A shield that can be parried, however, uses their EC bonus on the parry rolls and does not suffer two-handed weapon penalties when used for EC or when used to parry as an attack of opportunity. A shield only suffers two-weapon penalties when used to bash or parry as an off-hand attack.

Spatzimaus said:
And that's what worried me enough to bring this up. In stock D&D, two characters with AC 30 are balanced, with no difference in defense. In your system, there can be huge differences between them, like you say. That was the crux of my argument. The specifics SHOULDN'T be important to the discussion.
But they important, because in order to even be interested in this variant combat system in the first place, you have to want those details. You have to want more than simply... roll dice, beat AC, roll damage. You have to want a lot more tension in your combat for a little extra time (which quickly diminishes, in my experience, once the learning curve is over).

Spatzimaus said:
Doesn't have to be flat-footed. Rogues get their Sneak Attack dice when they flank a target, for example, and in my experience that's the far more likely situation (and flanking doesn't deny the defender his DEX bonus, either, just gives a +2 bonus). They'd get it against blinded or helpless targets, too, but if the target can't fight back the exact math becomes a bit irrelevant.
I realize. But the point was that you stacked the example with a rogue getting the drop on their opponent. That’s all. Every time that happens, the rogue is always at an advantage (with the printed rules or the variant combat system). Just like there are ways to counteract being flanked, flat-footed, etc. with the printed rules, so too are there ways to parry during these conditions with the variant combat system.

Spatzimaus said:
Let's say there are three types of attackers:
GROUP 1: The high-damage types with bad BAB (Rogue, Monk, anyone who uses Power Attack, anyone with +damage weapons (Flaming, etc.), or the later attacks in a Full Attack series). These guys would ALWAYS benefit from your system; any character who has AC from Armor or Natural Armor (at the expense of EC) would take substantially more damage from these types than they would under 3E, unless the attacker had such a ridiculously high attack bonus that he'd have always hit (see also: Dragons).
It's ironic that the dagger-wielding Rogue does so well against the plate-clad Fighter, when you used it as the example in the other direction.
Except that the fighter and their good BAB hasn't made their parry roll yet, which can easily negate the bad BAB attack in the first place.

Spatzimaus said:
GROUP 2: The classes that hit consistently with high numbers of low-damage attacks (any archer, most swarms of small critters, non-Rogues using daggers). These guys would almost always be harmed by your system; against any character who has AC from Armor or Natural Armor, their damage drops straight to zero ...
See the piecing weapon addendum (halving AC as damage reduction addendum).

Spatzimaus said:
GROUP 3: The middle of the road (low-level Fighters, Barbarians, etc.) These guys see no real change.
Except that the Max Dexterity Bonus for armor also limits their BAB Dexterity bonus.

Spatzimaus said:
This isn't always a bad thing; I like that a character can't just accumulate a huge AC and sit back behind their walls. But it's not a minor issue. Under your system, a fighter in full plate will be utterly invulnerable to archers and will be shredded by a Rogue, unless everyone takes the right combination of Feats/Skills/class abilities.
Not at all. Again, the standardized piercing weapon rule addresses this concern without using feats as band-aids.

Spatzimaus said:
So, if (weapon damage + enhancement bonus + STR mod) can't beat the target's AC, it's treated as a miss, no matter how many other damage sources you have stacked up.
I presume you mean AC as damage reduction? If so, that is how it works now, so I'm not sure of your point here. You subtract your AC as damage reduction value from the damage you are dealt. Same thing really.
 

Sonofapreacherman said:
Spatzimaus.

The most important of which is that piercing weapons halve AC as damage reduction. That includes arrows. But piecing weapons cannot be used to power attack, lacking the prerequisite swing of a bludgeon or slashing weapon to build up momentum.

Oddly enough, there are piercing weapons that DO have just this sort of momentum, given that they are to be swung and tend to have a lot of mass. War "hammers" are swung piercing weapons (they're really a type of pick). Picks are swung piercing weapons. Halberds can be used as swung piercing weapons.
 

feydras said:
Wonderful thread. I've been wanting to use armor as DR for ages and have debated it back and forth with my players and in other message boards. sonofapreacherman's version is by far the most well reasoned, and thoroughly thought out argument yet.
Thank you. I appreciate the feedback.

feydras said:
I'm still not sure if i like the additional rules for two-weapon fighting. i think two-weapon fighting will already be at a disadvantage vs. armor as the weapons have to be lighter. I haven't really thought this out, but my gut says it looks like another level of complication that may not be necessary.
Remember that the changes for two-weapon fighting gives the defender an extra parry without having to sacrifice their attack of opportunity. That is huge advantage with the variant combat system.

Moreover, attacking with two weapons simultaneously, and efficiently for that matter, is one of the hardest things to do; although stunt coordinators make to look easy in various sword fighting films. That said, attacking with the two-weapons simultaneously does have some historical context, in which the attacks were actually executed as flurries. But it was rare. For the most part, the second weapon, often a main gauche, was used solely for the purpose of parrying.

The variant combat system includes statistics for a main gauche, which gives a bonus to parrying rolls.

feydras said:
I know you are hesitant to add in to many new rules, however, i'd love to see a few other major changes incorporated into this system...
I think a combination of your armor as DR system + piecemeal armor + called shots could yield a very vibrant combat system. It seems that some of the problems inherent with each system are addressed when they are combined. Anyone want to help me explore this idea? Maybe on a new thread.
Funny you should bring this up again. I actually designed a called shot rule, but I am more inclined not to use it.

:cool:
 

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