Array Comparisons based on Point Buy

[Technik4]

Comparing similar arrays composed of different point buy values:

-36 pts-
16 +3
15 +2
14 +2
13 +1
12 +1
11 0
+9 total

Wizard 16 Int, 15 Dex/Con, 14 Dex/Con, 13 Wis/Cha, 12 Wis/Cha, 11 Str

Fighter 16 Str, 15 Dex/Con, 14 Dex/Con, 13 Wis/Int, 12 Wis/Int, 11 Cha

Rogue 16 Dex, 15 Str/Con, 14 Str/Con, 13 Int/Wis, 12 Int/Wis, 11 Cha

Monk 16 Dex/Wis, 15 Dex/Wis, 14 Con, 13 Str, 12 Int, 11 Cha

-32 pts-
16 +3
14 +2
14 +2
12 +1
12 +1
10 0
+9 total

Wizard 16 Int, 14 Dex/Con, 14 Dex/Con, 12 Wis/Cha, 12 Wis/Cha, 10 Str

Fighter 16 Str, 14 Dex/Con, 14 Dex/Con, 12 Wis/Int, 12 Wis/Int, 10 Cha

Rogue 16 Dex, 14 Str/Con, 14 Str/Con, 12 Int/Wis, 12 Int/Wis, 10 Cha

Monk 16 Dex/Wis, 14 Dex/Wis, 14 Con, 12 Str, 12 Int, 11 Cha

-28 pts-
16 +3
14 +2
14 +2
12 +1
10 0
8 -1
+7 total

Wizard 16 Int, 14 Dex/Con, 14 Dex/Con, 12 Wis/Cha, 10 Wis/Cha, 8 Str

Fighter 16 Str, 14 Dex/Con, 14 Dex/Con, 12 Wis/Int, 10 Wis/Int, 8 Cha

Rogue 16 Dex, 14 Str/Con, 14 Str/Con, 12 Int/Wis, 10 Int/Wis, 8 Cha

Monk 16 Dex/Wis, 14 Dex/Wis, 14 Con, 12 Str, 10 Int, 8 Cha

-25 pts-
16 +3
14 +2
14 +2
10 0
9 -1
8 -1
+5 total

Wizard 16 Int, 14 Dex/Con, 14 Dex/Con, 10 Wis/Cha, 9 Wis/Cha, 8 Str

Fighter 16 Str, 14 Dex/Con, 14 Dex/Con, 10 Wis/Int, 9 Wis/Int, 8 Cha

Rogue 16 Dex, 14 Str/Con, 14 Str/Con, 10 Int/Wis, 9 Int/Wis, 8 Cha

Monk 16 Dex/Wis, 14 Dex/Wis, 14 Con, 10 Str, 9 Int, 8 Cha

-22 pts-
16 +3
14 +2
12 +1
10 0
8 -1
8 -1
+4 total

Wizard 16 Int, 14 Dex/Con, 12 Dex/Con, 10 Wis/Cha, 8 Wis/Cha, 8 Str

Fighter 16 Str, 14 Con, 12 Dex, 10 Wis/Int, 8 Wis/Int, 8 Cha

Rogue 16 Dex, 14 Str/Con, 12 Str/Con, 10 Int/Wis, 8 Int/Wis, 8 Cha

Monk 16 Dex/Wis, 14 Dex/Wis, 12 Con, 10 Str, 8 Int, 8 Cha







My argument is that in most of these cases, due to the nature of arrays (inherently weaker than Point Buy as there can be no versatility that PB implies), the only 'powers' that a class loses by decreasing the amount of points in their array is flexibility and roleplaying. The reason is because even with a 22 Point Buy these classes still have relatively high scores in their strengths, it is in their weaknesses (primarily Int, Wis, Cha) that they continually get lower and lower scores.



While low scores do not inherently inhibit roleplaying, they do place constraints on roleplaying, or possibly force you into roles you don't want to play. The game comes down to people getting together and having fun; if its more fun to have some out-of-combat strengths, or a couple more skill points per level, then why not allow them? Keep in mind I'm not trying to justify raising the average campaign Point Buy, I am saying that if you're using arrays based on PB, making an expensive array will not necessarily result in overpowered characters.



The only difference between the first 2 is that the 36 PB-based array has 3 odd scores which could be increased with the ability increases. However, given the nature of players trying to increase their highest stat (in all cases, the 16) this forces them to decide whether or not they want to increase something which will not result in a numerical adjustment at all, or invest in the future. I think the first array is slightly more powerful, however since it makes the choices harder both at character creation and every 4th level, I prefer it. If the wizard increases his Intellect then numerically the 36-pt array is equal to the 32-pt array excepting some feat requirements.



All the arrays beyond the first don't have the luxury of having odd scores (except the 9 in the 25 Point Buy), they are trying to maintain pace with the more expensive arrays so the weaker scores become a little weaker at first, and then in the final you end up with 2 below-average abilities, and only 3 above-average ability scores.



The class that comes out weakest in this analysis is, of course, the monk. He is reliant on 4 ability scores instead of 3 or less, therefore when his 4th score becomes average in the last 2 examples, you can tell he is going to have to shore up that weakness (the analysis persists if you prefer Str-based monks, they have 4 stats which demand reasonably above-average scores, neglecting any results in a weaker monk).



Cleric could easily be included but would conclude the same way: they need Wis, Con, Str (high armor allows them to neglect Dex), and then Charisma, Intelligence, and Dex. While an average charisma and subpar Intelligence and Dex would hinder a cleric, he could still dish out strong spells, attack well, and absorb a decent amount of punishment between his armor and hp. He would have less skill points, less opportunity to turn undead, and slightly lower AC, Init, and reflex saves.



Overall, what do you think of my assessment? Would you be more inclined to making stronger arrays in the future, or do you feel that my argument has some faults I do not address (please, post any feedback)?



Technik

 

[MarauderX]

Gimme an 18, please. I'll take an 18 somewhere in most cases no matter the point buy. I think that strategy strengthens your case of lower point buys weakening the supporting ability scores. This isn't as readily apparent when determining how 'tough' a PC is, as usually it is up to the main ability score to identify the character's greatest asset. Dropping the choice of an 18 down to a 16 makes a more rounded PC, but on a good team with others it may not matter too much.

Current PC that I am playing is a Monk1/Cleric8 with this basic setup from a 32 point buy:

Str 12
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 12

While nothing beyond Wis is stellar, the Wis score stands out even more with the class combo that I was aiming for. Points at 4th & 8th went into... Wis. Were this to be a 25 point buy I would have dropped Int to 8, Cha to 10, Str to 10 and Con to 11 just to keep that Wis at 18.

 

[Ogre Mage]

I too support a higher point buy than the 25 pt. standard. It just makes it too hard to do certain types of characters. My comfort zone is 28-36, with 32 as the "standard." Some of my 32 PB characters have looked like this--

Wizard:
STR 10
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 18
WIS 10
CHA 8 (Nerdy bookworm, haha)

Cleric:
STR 14
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 16
CHA 12

Neither of these characters proved overpowered in play and their good ability scores helped keep them alive at the low levels.

 

[Nifft]

36 pt buy? I'll take these, please:

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 14

Total Bonus: +12

I'm pretty darn good at anything.

-- N

 

[Crothian]

I think even the 22 point buy monk is playible though I'd lower the 16 to a 14 to increase the strength to a 12 and Int to a 10, but that's just me.

 

[arscott]

The PHB suggests the following method for determining stats
1: roll four d6 and drop the lowest six times. then arrange where desired.
2: if no score is higher than 13, or the total bonus from all six scores is lower than zero, reroll.

That second part's interesting. It basically says, "Scores that deviate this far below the average make poor or uninteresting characters to play". I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. But there's a flipside. Just as scores that are too low can lead to a frustrating series of overly-difficult obstacles, scores that are too high can lead to a frustrating series of obstacles that present no real challenge.

I wouldn't want to play chess against a grand-master. He'd kick my ass every time, and that wouldn't be any fun. But I also have no desire to play chess against a first-grader either.

If you apply the same logic to high scores that the RAW apply to low scores, you'd be rerolling if no score was lower than 11 or the sum of the bonuses was +12 or larger.

Technik's 36 point buy breaks the first half of this rule, and Nifft's breaks both.

No standard point buy can break the +12 part. The lower than 11 can be broken with
22 point buy or better using flattened scores like Nifft's. It's important to note though, if you use flattened scores, the higer than 13 rule is also broken with point buys of 28 or smaller.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I just realized yesterday that my 25pt buy character is in effect currently a 22pt buy. This is because I have a 15 and 13 that 'wastes' 3 of my points until 4th & 8th level respectively. The DM's xp 'system' (read ad-hoc) means I am going to go about another 7-8 sessions before the first of the delayed gratification kicks in.

How does this relate? Not to sure just wanted to share.

The big benefits of point-buy that I am experiencing are:
- guaranteed minimal decent scores (4d6dl can produce 14,10,10,10,10,8 = 14pt buy)
- optimized character with little 'wastage' of ability points

I'm always comparing 25pt buy with 4d6dl (min 14, mod+1 or better) and everytime I'm coming around to considering them equal. The 4d6dl has a very wide variance and on average it will produce a somewhat better set of scores than 25pt buy, this is true. However I draw an analogy with the DMG in regards to alternate hps, it states that below average hps hurt a character more than above average hps help. Given the security that 25pt buy provides, I'd choose it everytime over 4d6dl.

Ok, I'm a cautious player & my fellow players all choose to roll 4d6dl and a couple got characters in the 33-40pt range (equivalency). However I'm not the one stuck with 20 & 23 pt characters and rather poorly optimized characters at that.

 

[Seeten]

I am totally with you, Technik. I dont think the higher array hurts anyone, and it gives you a fighter who might be capable of having a halfway intelligent thought and doing more in the campaign than uttering the words, "Me smash. Me smash now!"

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

If we are talking about set arrays rather than the more tailored point buy, then I'd agree that they are not much more 'powerful' than the lower point buy.

In fact I would consider an array of about 28 pt buy equal to built-from-scratch 25 pt buy, and in turn I would consider an organic array of 30*pt buy to be worth the built-from-scratch 25 pt buy. Basically the less control the player has the more they should be compensated imo.

*It just occurred to me to reduce the 31 to 30 organic array, at some point diminished returns should kick in because as the point buy increases there is the probability that decent scores pop up in convenient positions.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Well, if people want to play with 36 point buy there's nothing wrong with that any more than there's anything wrong with starting with 22 point buy and giving everyone four free feats.

I have 25 point buy but I encourage the standard array. I find that with some players the temptation is to have 4 8s, figuring the one 18 will counter balance that. Which may have been true in 2e, but not in 3e. The standard array prevents someone from accidentally gimping his own character.