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Arthurian Adventures (in Ireland)
- Thread starter Particle_Man
- Start date
Toby of Kusman
First Post
Roman said:I think the ladies might object to that.
They did, but I can't blame them. I would do the same if I were a lady.
Roman said:Remember that under the system the knights would only suffer a nobility loss if a lady actually died - the knights cannot prevent the ladies from engaging if they want to...
We need to be more careful from now on. I'm glad that I'm no longer a Yoeman. You might kill me for shooting the ladies.
Roman said:I have a feeling that Sir Anton might also have an encounter with higher powers after fighting his older brother next session and having spent all of his fate points this encounter might be unavoidable.
Good luck! Did you make a vow to defeat your older brother for your lady of the lake? You would gain tons of nobility.
Roman said:
I see what you mean here. It's clear when you use ACTIVE and PASSIVE here. ACTIVE is intentional; and PASSIVE is not. Although we have a choice to use a +2 sword or a regular sword, we shouldn't waste our magic items
Roman said:
Particle_Man gave out tons of magic items not long ago. A bow, a few daggers, rings, etc. Cassandra has the button thingy. I think that's the only one magic item needed to be activated by pushing buttons.
Toby of Kusman
First Post
Roman said:
I am thinking a knight or a fighter with a priest cohort.
Knight: story purpose. cohort will only heal after each battle.
Fighter: someone can actully kill stuff fast. cohort will bull's strength, endurance, prayer, bless, etc.
Toby of Kusman said:
I vowed to avenge her death. This would entail defeating my brother, though not necessarily killing him (He hopes hope not, Sir Anton does not want to kill his own brother!). I am not sure whether it gives Sir Anton any nobility if he succeeds in his vow (I think it does, but I do not precisely remember the rules on this), but I think failure to fulfill his vow and avenge his patron almost certainly leads to a loss of nobility plus the loss of the ability of the Knight to advance as a Knight and possibly in the loss of his Knigthood altogether, though on this last one I am not sure. Of course, these losses assume he does not die in the process of failing...
It will be interesting that's for sure. I see what you mean here. It's clear when you use ACTIVE and PASSIVE here. ACTIVE is intentional; and PASSIVE is not. Although we have a choice to use a +2 sword or a regular sword, we shouldn't waste our magic items
You pretty much got my take on it.
I must have missed that somehow.
BTW: Particle_Man - do you have a spare character sheet? Sir Anton's one is rather damaged by now, as it has been over the course of his advancement through 10 levels and all the handling as well as erasing and changing of statistics, equipment, etc. left its mark on the structural integrity of the paper.
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Toby of Kusman said:
I am not sure I can help you on this one. You tried playing a yeomen and a knight, so it is up to you whether you want to try a fighter in the campaign or return back to the knight.
Just thought of an interesting fate if you go for the fighter: To prove that breaking the code of chivalry is key to defeating knights.
Particle_Man
Explorer
I printed one up and will go xerox it. If you like, you can go to RPGsheets and search for Excalibur, or search for Arthurian Adventures, and find the same sheet.
Hmmm...I think I will lay off the "natural 1 means I can screw with you in missle weapon combat", since that seems to be the source of the problems. I'll just leave that "power" with the Cursed Bow of Kusman.
One way out of the "escort the ladies" deal is, perhaps, that a lady who intentionally wades into combat gives up the "must protect me" part of the code voluntarily. That would take care of Lady Andrea, and perhaps Lady Christine. Perhaps the same could be said for a Lady using a bow (Leanne). The need to protect non-meelee, non-missle, spellcasting ladies (sometimes Christine, sometimes Leanne, Cassandra) is something we would have to discuss.
Now I have this idea of a dragon with 12 ladies tied to stakes, at different points on the battle field, with the knights scrambling like mad to position themselves between the dragon and each of the ladies. But that is more a geometry puzzle than D&D.
Hmmm...I think I will lay off the "natural 1 means I can screw with you in missle weapon combat", since that seems to be the source of the problems. I'll just leave that "power" with the Cursed Bow of Kusman.
One way out of the "escort the ladies" deal is, perhaps, that a lady who intentionally wades into combat gives up the "must protect me" part of the code voluntarily. That would take care of Lady Andrea, and perhaps Lady Christine. Perhaps the same could be said for a Lady using a bow (Leanne). The need to protect non-meelee, non-missle, spellcasting ladies (sometimes Christine, sometimes Leanne, Cassandra) is something we would have to discuss.
Now I have this idea of a dragon with 12 ladies tied to stakes, at different points on the battle field, with the knights scrambling like mad to position themselves between the dragon and each of the ladies. But that is more a geometry puzzle than D&D.
Toby of Kusman
First Post
Roman said:I am not sure I can help you on this one. You tried playing a yeomen and a knight, so it is up to you whether you want to try a fighter in the campaign or return back to the knight.
Just thought of an interesting fate if you go for the fighter: To prove that breaking the code of chivalry is key to defeating knights.
LOL. Actually, knights die easily. Look at the number of death in our party. Steven's death was intentional (If he did survive, he would have returned to the bandit camp with Yvona. He had oathed to the bandit leader in my story. I have planned ahead
)I believe you are the only knight who hasn't been defeated in our campaign.
White - defeated and transformed into a stone lady
Red - defeated and transformed into a Golbin
Green - defeated and transformed into a Centuar
Purple - defeated and transformed into a Dwarf
Blue - the remaining human knight
Spell casters - any death records? I don't remember.
I don't say that fighters will not die, but fighters will have a higher chance of success in combats.
Sorry to everybody that I could not make it to the Friday campaign today - I woke up with fever and felt terrible. I tried to walk but my head was spinning. I am feeling somewhat better now, so I should be able to make it to on Saturday to this campaign.
Hmm, you have a point. If the Blue knight falls too and has fate points left (which regretfully is not the case at the moment) I am betting on a transformation to something related either to fish, or frogs or crocodiles.
Toby of Kusman said:LOL. Actually, knights die easily. Look at the number of death in our party. Steven's death was intentional (If he did survive, he would have returned to the bandit camp with Yvona. He had oathed to the bandit leader in my story. I have planned ahead
I believe you are the only knight who hasn't been defeated in our campaign.
White - defeated and transformed into a stone lady
Red - defeated and transformed into a Golbin
Green - defeated and transformed into a Centuar
Purple - defeated and transformed into a Dwarf
Blue - the remaining human knight
Spell casters - any death records? I don't remember.
I don't say that fighters will not die, but fighters will have a higher chance of success in combats.
Hmm, you have a point. If the Blue knight falls too and has fate points left (which regretfully is not the case at the moment) I am betting on a transformation to something related either to fish, or frogs or crocodiles.
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Toby of Kusman
First Post
Roman said:
Don't worry. We didn't do much on Friday. We spent hours in a town shopping. It was my fault. I wanted to buy some wands since I had used up all the charges on my Magic Missile (5th level) wand. I bought a See Invisibility wand and a Fireball (6th level) wand.
Everyone spent their gold as well. Danny traded in his +2 greatsword for a cursed greatsword
Particle_Man
Explorer
So this installment will be divided into two parts: the game session and the discussion about nobility gains/losses. Everyone (including those not involved in the game, and including Athurian Adventures creator Charles Rice) is free to chip in their 2 cents on the latter.
The game itself: King Anguish is missing a castle, and has heard of a new castle or fort appearing to the north, and so sends the gang to check it out, and see if perhaps its stones could be used as the foundation for a new castle. Lady Christine gets knighted as Sir Chris by Prince Caius.
Lady Leanne and Cassandra try to reincarnate Magnus, but get a vision of “King” Albion in his patchwork collection of castles, wherein is seen the yeoman that gave the party grief earlier, as well as a small winged figure with the twisted visage of a Magnus consumed with hatred. They infer that Magnus cannot be brought back until the ignoble part of him is “laid to rest with extreme prejudice”.
When the party gets to the fort in the north, they find it occupied by Saxons! Indeed it was a Saxon fort and was moved by magic. The Saxons are a bit confused, but defiant, and say that they will have their champion meet the champion of the party to see whose fort it is. The party sends Sir Andrea, and the Saxons call out, and from behind the fort comes three hill giants, Larn, his brother Daren, and his other brother Daren. The younger and smaller Daren wants to prove himself, and asks to be the champion. During the battle, Lady Leanne tries to buff Sir Andrea, but a witchdoctor/shaman type of the Saxons detects this, and dispels the magic! The fight continues, and with one ranged healing effect from Lady Leanne, Sir Andrea prevails. The two giants carry away their unconscious brother, and the Saxons declare themselves for King Anguish. And a few propose marriage to Sir Andrea. The witchdoctor doesn’t, and is pushed off the keep to his death by another Saxon (the Saxons respect winners, not losers). Caius tells all the Saxons to go into the fort to feast to celebrate, and most of the party goes in as well. Outside, and undisturbed, a ring is discovered on that witchdoctor by Lady Leanne and Prince Caius, (and Cassandra) as well as a magic bone (SR 15). The ring is one of Albion’s and Lady Leanne cuts off the finger (causing a whirlwind) and puts the ring in a vial, without touching it. She intends to study it.
The party rests for the night and continues north. They find the village of Littleton has been attacked by giants! And one of the villager’s daughters (Gloria) has been kidnapped. The party does not find it difficult to track the giants. Combat again ensues, but this time against the larger Daren! (Daren has some Barbarian/Berserker levels). Here the party divides. Some of the party engage this giant in single combat, while others of the party try to team up and get Gloria out of the hands of the other giant (who was using her as a hostage to force the champion to fight the big giant). This combat is bloody and long, and Sir Andrea and Sir Chris both fall in combat. The earth swallows them up (they had fate points to burn, so what the heck).
It is during this combat that a knight and two priests find the party attacking the giants (two players, one npc cohort). They were sent by Count Randolph to get aid from King Anguish against the Saxons that plague the northeast coast of Ireland.
Eventually combat is won. Now I take Sir Chris’s player out and give her a “mini-adventure” wherein she is told by a glowing lady that she is called upon to defeat a demon, and if she succeeds she will regain her life. Sir Chris appears, unarmed and unarmoured, in the dining hall of a demon, who seems to be about to feast upon a baby! Sir Chris sees a spear behind her on the wall, and uses it to stab the demon from behind, taking it by surprise! But then the demon turns out to be really an old man, the baby turns out to be a roast chicken, and the lady’s voice turns into the booming, mocking laughter of King Albion. Sir Chris is then whisked away, but gets to keep the spear (a nice one, a +5 ignoble longspear of wounding, that can be used as a lance!)
Then it is time for Sir Andrea’s “mini-adventure”. She awakens in a room tended by Lady Nimue, a servitor of King Arthur. Lady Nimue tells Sir Andrea that the Fisher King has been slain or seriously wounded by the Lance of Longinus (the spear that pierced the side of Christ, a weapon so terrible it should never be used!). This has led to the death of everyone in the Fisher King’s kingdom, as well as the death of all plant life in that kingdom and two kingdoms nearby. And this wasteland will spread, unless the most holy of artifacts, the Holy Grail, is recovered. Thus King Arthur has ordered all knights to seek out this grail, and it is Sir Andrea’s job to spread the word to all the knights in Ireland, starting with the company. Sir Andrea was also told that it was one of her company that may in some way be responsible! Nimue presents her with 8 swords (+3 noble longswords) to help Sir Andrea and her friends in their quest for the Holy Grail. (This will be tricky, as at least three of the company have committed severe transgressions).
Then both are deposited on opposite sides of the village, about half an hour away. They both get a feeling for where the village is. So Sir Chris (now red of skin, as if sunburned) walks in with her spear, and Sir Andrea (now with Silver irises in her eyes) walks in as well. A new character, a priest, thinks that he sees an angel and a devil. Sir Chris explains what happens, but only to Prince Caius, who insists she keep it secret. Sir Andrea spreads the word. Suspicion mounts on Hubert, who was in Scotland recently, and thus might be responsible, but nothing can be proven.
Anyhow, that spends all of Sir Chris’s destiny points; For now, I am draining Sir Andrea’s destiny points slowly. Every three days she shrinks one inch (and that spends the destiny point). So far she hasn’t noticed, and her armor is resizing with her.
The party continues north. 6 days (and 2 inches) later, they see a flying white dragon, with the younger brother hill giant on his back! The dragon says that while the giant wants to fight, the dragon would be content to simply take all of the party’s treasure and horses. The priest tries to convince the Dragon to be peaceful in the name of Christ, but no dice. The priest then tries a bestow curse spell. The party elects to fight. Eventually the dragon and giant are defeated (notably, the druid and minstrel summon, enlarge and buff a giant snake to grapple the dragon at one point!). Oddly, though Sir Chris did not get involved in the combat, her new magic spear is still dripping with blood at the end of it…
And that is where we leave it. Now on to the nobility discussion part. Many members of the party lost nobility for ganging up on the dragon and/or the giant. This led to two sorts of questions: 1) Is it fair to present the party with situations where it seems to be “gang up” or die?, and 2) What, exactly, counts as “attacking a foe at a disadvantage”? Listed is “attacking a dismounted foe from horseback”, and “attacking a foe with ranged weapons, if they don’t have such”.
To the first question, while I would not always use “supertough” foes against the party, it is sometimes hard to judge who will cheat and who will not, so I sort of aim to sometimes have weaker foes and sometimes have stronger foes. Another way of looking at it is that sometimes nobility is “spent” to win a combat, much like charges from a staff are discharged. Then the nobility has to be “replenished” by some extra good deeds (which I will try to develop with the Grail quest). Also, I was curious to see whether the party would try to outsmart the dragon (feed it a summoned creature, challenge it to a riddle contest, etc.). But, I can see that this might not be as easy to see from a player’s viewpoint, so I will try to throw more “single combat appropriate” monsters.
To the second, after much discussion, we decided that the attacking a foe at a disadvantage penalty would be, not per combat, and not per round of attacks, but per opponent in combat (with the caveat that if one fully disengaged/leaves combat and then returns, that can count for a new penalty). Ranged attacks would only be “safely” used if the opponent uses ranged weapons, and only if the opponent can reach one with such (so if the dragon is grappled by a snake and can’t move, then attacking it with missle weapons out of the range of the dragon’s breath weapon would be attacking a foe at a disadvantage).
If a creature is flying, then it is not attacking a foe at a disadvantage if one is mounted vs. the flying creature.
A dragon was seen as not automatically “Fair game” for magic unless it used magic itself. Claws and bites did not count for this, spells did, and the breath weapon is under discussion.
A “mass opponent” spell was, I think, decided to count as attacking multiple opponents at a disadvantage, and thus could count for multiple penalties. But this is still open to discussion.
A dragon’s breath weapon is still under some discussion. Does it count as a ranged attack, a magical attack, or both?
Next, what about magic items, buff spells, etc.? Well, since King Arthur uses magic items (like Excalibur) it was hard to argue against their use, although there is a possible difference between “passive” items that simply do what they do, items that “activated themselves”, and “Active” items that have to be activated by the user, as if a spell were being cast. The “bless” effect granted by priests giving communion was seen as not breaking the rules of attacking foes at a disadvantage, but what about the “bless, prayer, bull’s strength”, etc. series in combat? Bardic singing (via Skald, Minstrel) was seen as not breaking the rules. Maybe it comes down to typed bonuses? Morale bonuses don’t break the rules? Or could the difference come down to “flashy” vs. “non-flashy” effects. A blessing or prayer or bull’s strength does not cause obvious changes, in the way that a polymorph or enlarge do, so a knight might just consider this to be feeling good about the combat, or adrenaline, as opposed to cheating? This is still an area to discuss.
Now for all of this, one could GAIN nobility if one failed to use such tactics even after the foe used them (ranged weapons, etc.). Since Arthurian legends are all about knightly jousting and such, I would allow that mounted combat vs. mounted combat knights was still ok, so that a knight would not gain free nobility by dismounting before a joust against a mounted knight.
There is also the question of whether the nobility system only works for knights. Earlier it was seen as difficult for non-knights to gain nobility. Partly this is my fault, as I should a) give the party some more treasure, followed by b) have some beggars, churches, etc., in the party’s path for the party to donate to. And have damsels in distress that need aid, etc. and/or the party can swear more oaths, and keep them.
Finally, there is the question of nobility vs. those that “count” vs. heathens, monsters (even monsters that talk) etc. It is not like dragons know or care about chivalry much, much less serving the One God. And how does the Old Faith tie into the code of chivalry? Right now I am applying it across the board to everyone with respect to everyone, but this is open to discussion too.
So anyhow, I am new at the DM game, so still learning, and am open to ideas on all of this. If Charles Rice is about to release a 55 page pdf on “Arthurian Adventures and Medieval Heroic Ethics: how exactly to gain and lose nobility” I would likely buy it. But I can see why a lot of this left to the dm and party to decide. It wanders into the realm of moral philosophy (a millennia old subject), and whether (and how much) nobility is tied to what the character intends, what the character does regardless of intention (one can lose nobility for hitting a horse in a joust, but this is determined by a random roll), how the character is perceived, etc. Also, starting nobility is determined by social class!
It is tricky. That’s for sure. But I think that together we can hammer something out, and discover things through trial-and-error, so I remain optimistic.
The game itself: King Anguish is missing a castle, and has heard of a new castle or fort appearing to the north, and so sends the gang to check it out, and see if perhaps its stones could be used as the foundation for a new castle. Lady Christine gets knighted as Sir Chris by Prince Caius.
Lady Leanne and Cassandra try to reincarnate Magnus, but get a vision of “King” Albion in his patchwork collection of castles, wherein is seen the yeoman that gave the party grief earlier, as well as a small winged figure with the twisted visage of a Magnus consumed with hatred. They infer that Magnus cannot be brought back until the ignoble part of him is “laid to rest with extreme prejudice”.
When the party gets to the fort in the north, they find it occupied by Saxons! Indeed it was a Saxon fort and was moved by magic. The Saxons are a bit confused, but defiant, and say that they will have their champion meet the champion of the party to see whose fort it is. The party sends Sir Andrea, and the Saxons call out, and from behind the fort comes three hill giants, Larn, his brother Daren, and his other brother Daren. The younger and smaller Daren wants to prove himself, and asks to be the champion. During the battle, Lady Leanne tries to buff Sir Andrea, but a witchdoctor/shaman type of the Saxons detects this, and dispels the magic! The fight continues, and with one ranged healing effect from Lady Leanne, Sir Andrea prevails. The two giants carry away their unconscious brother, and the Saxons declare themselves for King Anguish. And a few propose marriage to Sir Andrea. The witchdoctor doesn’t, and is pushed off the keep to his death by another Saxon (the Saxons respect winners, not losers). Caius tells all the Saxons to go into the fort to feast to celebrate, and most of the party goes in as well. Outside, and undisturbed, a ring is discovered on that witchdoctor by Lady Leanne and Prince Caius, (and Cassandra) as well as a magic bone (SR 15). The ring is one of Albion’s and Lady Leanne cuts off the finger (causing a whirlwind) and puts the ring in a vial, without touching it. She intends to study it.
The party rests for the night and continues north. They find the village of Littleton has been attacked by giants! And one of the villager’s daughters (Gloria) has been kidnapped. The party does not find it difficult to track the giants. Combat again ensues, but this time against the larger Daren! (Daren has some Barbarian/Berserker levels). Here the party divides. Some of the party engage this giant in single combat, while others of the party try to team up and get Gloria out of the hands of the other giant (who was using her as a hostage to force the champion to fight the big giant). This combat is bloody and long, and Sir Andrea and Sir Chris both fall in combat. The earth swallows them up (they had fate points to burn, so what the heck).
It is during this combat that a knight and two priests find the party attacking the giants (two players, one npc cohort). They were sent by Count Randolph to get aid from King Anguish against the Saxons that plague the northeast coast of Ireland.
Eventually combat is won. Now I take Sir Chris’s player out and give her a “mini-adventure” wherein she is told by a glowing lady that she is called upon to defeat a demon, and if she succeeds she will regain her life. Sir Chris appears, unarmed and unarmoured, in the dining hall of a demon, who seems to be about to feast upon a baby! Sir Chris sees a spear behind her on the wall, and uses it to stab the demon from behind, taking it by surprise! But then the demon turns out to be really an old man, the baby turns out to be a roast chicken, and the lady’s voice turns into the booming, mocking laughter of King Albion. Sir Chris is then whisked away, but gets to keep the spear (a nice one, a +5 ignoble longspear of wounding, that can be used as a lance!)
Then it is time for Sir Andrea’s “mini-adventure”. She awakens in a room tended by Lady Nimue, a servitor of King Arthur. Lady Nimue tells Sir Andrea that the Fisher King has been slain or seriously wounded by the Lance of Longinus (the spear that pierced the side of Christ, a weapon so terrible it should never be used!). This has led to the death of everyone in the Fisher King’s kingdom, as well as the death of all plant life in that kingdom and two kingdoms nearby. And this wasteland will spread, unless the most holy of artifacts, the Holy Grail, is recovered. Thus King Arthur has ordered all knights to seek out this grail, and it is Sir Andrea’s job to spread the word to all the knights in Ireland, starting with the company. Sir Andrea was also told that it was one of her company that may in some way be responsible! Nimue presents her with 8 swords (+3 noble longswords) to help Sir Andrea and her friends in their quest for the Holy Grail. (This will be tricky, as at least three of the company have committed severe transgressions).
Then both are deposited on opposite sides of the village, about half an hour away. They both get a feeling for where the village is. So Sir Chris (now red of skin, as if sunburned) walks in with her spear, and Sir Andrea (now with Silver irises in her eyes) walks in as well. A new character, a priest, thinks that he sees an angel and a devil. Sir Chris explains what happens, but only to Prince Caius, who insists she keep it secret. Sir Andrea spreads the word. Suspicion mounts on Hubert, who was in Scotland recently, and thus might be responsible, but nothing can be proven.
Anyhow, that spends all of Sir Chris’s destiny points; For now, I am draining Sir Andrea’s destiny points slowly. Every three days she shrinks one inch (and that spends the destiny point). So far she hasn’t noticed, and her armor is resizing with her.
The party continues north. 6 days (and 2 inches) later, they see a flying white dragon, with the younger brother hill giant on his back! The dragon says that while the giant wants to fight, the dragon would be content to simply take all of the party’s treasure and horses. The priest tries to convince the Dragon to be peaceful in the name of Christ, but no dice. The priest then tries a bestow curse spell. The party elects to fight. Eventually the dragon and giant are defeated (notably, the druid and minstrel summon, enlarge and buff a giant snake to grapple the dragon at one point!). Oddly, though Sir Chris did not get involved in the combat, her new magic spear is still dripping with blood at the end of it…
And that is where we leave it. Now on to the nobility discussion part. Many members of the party lost nobility for ganging up on the dragon and/or the giant. This led to two sorts of questions: 1) Is it fair to present the party with situations where it seems to be “gang up” or die?, and 2) What, exactly, counts as “attacking a foe at a disadvantage”? Listed is “attacking a dismounted foe from horseback”, and “attacking a foe with ranged weapons, if they don’t have such”.
To the first question, while I would not always use “supertough” foes against the party, it is sometimes hard to judge who will cheat and who will not, so I sort of aim to sometimes have weaker foes and sometimes have stronger foes. Another way of looking at it is that sometimes nobility is “spent” to win a combat, much like charges from a staff are discharged. Then the nobility has to be “replenished” by some extra good deeds (which I will try to develop with the Grail quest). Also, I was curious to see whether the party would try to outsmart the dragon (feed it a summoned creature, challenge it to a riddle contest, etc.). But, I can see that this might not be as easy to see from a player’s viewpoint, so I will try to throw more “single combat appropriate” monsters.
To the second, after much discussion, we decided that the attacking a foe at a disadvantage penalty would be, not per combat, and not per round of attacks, but per opponent in combat (with the caveat that if one fully disengaged/leaves combat and then returns, that can count for a new penalty). Ranged attacks would only be “safely” used if the opponent uses ranged weapons, and only if the opponent can reach one with such (so if the dragon is grappled by a snake and can’t move, then attacking it with missle weapons out of the range of the dragon’s breath weapon would be attacking a foe at a disadvantage).
If a creature is flying, then it is not attacking a foe at a disadvantage if one is mounted vs. the flying creature.
A dragon was seen as not automatically “Fair game” for magic unless it used magic itself. Claws and bites did not count for this, spells did, and the breath weapon is under discussion.
A “mass opponent” spell was, I think, decided to count as attacking multiple opponents at a disadvantage, and thus could count for multiple penalties. But this is still open to discussion.
A dragon’s breath weapon is still under some discussion. Does it count as a ranged attack, a magical attack, or both?
Next, what about magic items, buff spells, etc.? Well, since King Arthur uses magic items (like Excalibur) it was hard to argue against their use, although there is a possible difference between “passive” items that simply do what they do, items that “activated themselves”, and “Active” items that have to be activated by the user, as if a spell were being cast. The “bless” effect granted by priests giving communion was seen as not breaking the rules of attacking foes at a disadvantage, but what about the “bless, prayer, bull’s strength”, etc. series in combat? Bardic singing (via Skald, Minstrel) was seen as not breaking the rules. Maybe it comes down to typed bonuses? Morale bonuses don’t break the rules? Or could the difference come down to “flashy” vs. “non-flashy” effects. A blessing or prayer or bull’s strength does not cause obvious changes, in the way that a polymorph or enlarge do, so a knight might just consider this to be feeling good about the combat, or adrenaline, as opposed to cheating? This is still an area to discuss.
Now for all of this, one could GAIN nobility if one failed to use such tactics even after the foe used them (ranged weapons, etc.). Since Arthurian legends are all about knightly jousting and such, I would allow that mounted combat vs. mounted combat knights was still ok, so that a knight would not gain free nobility by dismounting before a joust against a mounted knight.
There is also the question of whether the nobility system only works for knights. Earlier it was seen as difficult for non-knights to gain nobility. Partly this is my fault, as I should a) give the party some more treasure, followed by b) have some beggars, churches, etc., in the party’s path for the party to donate to. And have damsels in distress that need aid, etc. and/or the party can swear more oaths, and keep them.
Finally, there is the question of nobility vs. those that “count” vs. heathens, monsters (even monsters that talk) etc. It is not like dragons know or care about chivalry much, much less serving the One God. And how does the Old Faith tie into the code of chivalry? Right now I am applying it across the board to everyone with respect to everyone, but this is open to discussion too.
So anyhow, I am new at the DM game, so still learning, and am open to ideas on all of this. If Charles Rice is about to release a 55 page pdf on “Arthurian Adventures and Medieval Heroic Ethics: how exactly to gain and lose nobility” I would likely buy it. But I can see why a lot of this left to the dm and party to decide. It wanders into the realm of moral philosophy (a millennia old subject), and whether (and how much) nobility is tied to what the character intends, what the character does regardless of intention (one can lose nobility for hitting a horse in a joust, but this is determined by a random roll), how the character is perceived, etc. Also, starting nobility is determined by social class!
It is tricky. That’s for sure. But I think that together we can hammer something out, and discover things through trial-and-error, so I remain optimistic.
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