AaronOfBarbaria
Adventurer
Some cursed items specifically mention that identify outs them as being cursed (I have no idea why, but they do).
D&D 5E As a DM what spell / ability do you find most annoying?
- Thread starter fil512
- Start date
ClaytonCross
Kinder reader Inflection wanted
Minor illusion anyone?
So I love and hate this spell. I love it because its so flexible that it really frees players to do some interesting things. I hate it because when they do something interesting that is also useful... It usually ends up in a debate.
Examples? SURE!
1. "If you create an image of an object" (Not a creature). Based on an actual argument I heard with one of my GMs and another player.
Player: I make an image of me standing against the wall.
GM: you can't make creatures or living moving objects.
Player: I make an image of a statue of my self in full gear leaning against the wall.
GM: Sure, a patrol walks around the corner and ignores the strange statue across the bridge and continues on their path.
Player: WHAT?!?! It looks just like me and they are trying to find me why will they not head to it?
GM: it looks like a badly painted statue their not interested.
Player: they can't tell that from the other side of the bridge!
GM: It looks like a crappy statue. If you want people to believe its you or a scary dog or what ever use use Silent Image, I am not letting you do this with a cantrip.
... GM call with angry player or hour long debate with angry GM and player. Not taking a side, just something that happens. You may pick your side as you wish.
2. The Shadows of the illusion
Player: I cast minor illusion to create a balcony above me. Then I step into the shadow and use "while in shadows ability X"
Abilities that might trigger this: Shadow Step (Monk) , One with the Shadows (warlock) , etc ...
- Or -
Player: I cast minor illusion to create a leather tent above me shrouding me in darkness attack against me and checks to perceive me are at disadvantage because its so dark.
-Or-
Player: I cast minor illusion to create a box over the candle on the table, the room goes dark.
GM: Illusions don't make shadows, its just in your their head.
Player: Its not in their head, the spell doesn't say that. Its like a projection in real space.
GM: ok, so its a project in real space, but it doesn't make shadows because the light can pass through them.
Player: If the light passes through them they look like cartoons!! No one is going to believe that is real!!
GM: Your right its pretty obvious, I will give them advantage on there investigation check to realize its fake.
(No seriously had a GM do that. Likely just made at the player thought, The GM considered it "gaming" the system. The player called it creative use.... I just don't know)
3. Can't see me.
Player: I cast minor illusion cast a wall in front of me. I use quicken spell step out from behind the wall and cast Firebolt as a bonus action then step back behind the wall.
GM: The Evil Sorver casts scorching ray at...
Player: He can't target me because I am behind the wall.
GM: He saw you cast the wall and knows its an illusion so he can see through it.
Player: He has to use his action to do that!
GM: But he already knows its an illusion I am not making him roll a check when he already knows its fake.
-or-
Player: I cast minor illusion cast a wall in front of me.
GM: Patrol walk up ... and attacks, roll initiative.
Player: But the can't see me I look like a wall!?!
GM: Well you didn't take the "hide action" so they know your there and since the walls don't usually breath or make noise they took moment to "investigate" and figured your either a mimic or hiding behind an illusion. Either way this is a surprise round because YOU didn't see it coming.
4. Lets really make a GM made!! combine 2 & 3!!
Player: I cast minor illusion and make a pill box with a hole and its in front of the light so its very dark. They can't see me now so I have advantage on attacks against them until they investigate or shoot through the illusion and the have disadvantage the first attack against me which will likely penetrate the illusion. I use quicken spell and cast Firebolt with advantage as a bonus action through the hole.
GM: You don't get advantage because the Firebolt passes thought the illusion revealing it as an illusion.
Player: But there is a whole and its a striate line to the target I don't need to hit the illusion to hit the enemy.
GM: they see your hand in the hole so you don't get advantage.
Player: But its dark they can't see in the hole.
GM: Illusions don't have shadows.
Player: But if the player believes the illusion then he believes It has a shadow and he believes he can't see me.
GM: Look, I am not letting you get advantage on attacks from minor illusion until it ends. True Strike only gives it to you for one round and its a cantrip too. Your not only using minor illusion to duplicate another cantrip but its better than True Strike because they can't target you and/or have disadvantage on the first attack and your advantage on attack could last for 10 turns. That's at least a first level spell if not higher.
Player: Well its not technically against the rules! Its just a cleaver use of the spell!
GM: It against the rules now I am house ruling it. It minor illusion cantrip is for minor unimportant things.
(Ok... this one might have been men as the player... looking back... it best it was house ruled. Now that I have GM'd I completely understand)
... Ah good times, when its someone else, but it gets old. Most of the players at our table just avoid this spell now other than a comedic joke once in a while, like the extra stool that's not really there... Have a seat buddy!!.
So I love and hate this spell. I love it because its so flexible that it really frees players to do some interesting things. I hate it because when they do something interesting that is also useful... It usually ends up in a debate.
Examples? SURE!
1. "If you create an image of an object" (Not a creature). Based on an actual argument I heard with one of my GMs and another player.
Player: I make an image of me standing against the wall.
GM: you can't make creatures or living moving objects.
Player: I make an image of a statue of my self in full gear leaning against the wall.
GM: Sure, a patrol walks around the corner and ignores the strange statue across the bridge and continues on their path.
Player: WHAT?!?! It looks just like me and they are trying to find me why will they not head to it?
GM: it looks like a badly painted statue their not interested.
Player: they can't tell that from the other side of the bridge!
GM: It looks like a crappy statue. If you want people to believe its you or a scary dog or what ever use use Silent Image, I am not letting you do this with a cantrip.
... GM call with angry player or hour long debate with angry GM and player. Not taking a side, just something that happens. You may pick your side as you wish.
2. The Shadows of the illusion
Player: I cast minor illusion to create a balcony above me. Then I step into the shadow and use "while in shadows ability X"
Abilities that might trigger this: Shadow Step (Monk) , One with the Shadows (warlock) , etc ...
- Or -
Player: I cast minor illusion to create a leather tent above me shrouding me in darkness attack against me and checks to perceive me are at disadvantage because its so dark.
-Or-
Player: I cast minor illusion to create a box over the candle on the table, the room goes dark.
GM: Illusions don't make shadows, its just in your their head.
Player: Its not in their head, the spell doesn't say that. Its like a projection in real space.
GM: ok, so its a project in real space, but it doesn't make shadows because the light can pass through them.
Player: If the light passes through them they look like cartoons!! No one is going to believe that is real!!
GM: Your right its pretty obvious, I will give them advantage on there investigation check to realize its fake.
(No seriously had a GM do that. Likely just made at the player thought, The GM considered it "gaming" the system. The player called it creative use.... I just don't know)
3. Can't see me.
Player: I cast minor illusion cast a wall in front of me. I use quicken spell step out from behind the wall and cast Firebolt as a bonus action then step back behind the wall.
GM: The Evil Sorver casts scorching ray at...
Player: He can't target me because I am behind the wall.
GM: He saw you cast the wall and knows its an illusion so he can see through it.
Player: He has to use his action to do that!
GM: But he already knows its an illusion I am not making him roll a check when he already knows its fake.
-or-
Player: I cast minor illusion cast a wall in front of me.
GM: Patrol walk up ... and attacks, roll initiative.
Player: But the can't see me I look like a wall!?!
GM: Well you didn't take the "hide action" so they know your there and since the walls don't usually breath or make noise they took moment to "investigate" and figured your either a mimic or hiding behind an illusion. Either way this is a surprise round because YOU didn't see it coming.
4. Lets really make a GM made!! combine 2 & 3!!
Player: I cast minor illusion and make a pill box with a hole and its in front of the light so its very dark. They can't see me now so I have advantage on attacks against them until they investigate or shoot through the illusion and the have disadvantage the first attack against me which will likely penetrate the illusion. I use quicken spell and cast Firebolt with advantage as a bonus action through the hole.
GM: You don't get advantage because the Firebolt passes thought the illusion revealing it as an illusion.
Player: But there is a whole and its a striate line to the target I don't need to hit the illusion to hit the enemy.
GM: they see your hand in the hole so you don't get advantage.
Player: But its dark they can't see in the hole.
GM: Illusions don't have shadows.
Player: But if the player believes the illusion then he believes It has a shadow and he believes he can't see me.
GM: Look, I am not letting you get advantage on attacks from minor illusion until it ends. True Strike only gives it to you for one round and its a cantrip too. Your not only using minor illusion to duplicate another cantrip but its better than True Strike because they can't target you and/or have disadvantage on the first attack and your advantage on attack could last for 10 turns. That's at least a first level spell if not higher.
Player: Well its not technically against the rules! Its just a cleaver use of the spell!
GM: It against the rules now I am house ruling it. It minor illusion cantrip is for minor unimportant things.
(Ok... this one might have been men as the player... looking back... it best it was house ruled. Now that I have GM'd I completely understand)
... Ah good times, when its someone else, but it gets old. Most of the players at our table just avoid this spell now other than a comedic joke once in a while, like the extra stool that's not really there... Have a seat buddy!!.
HOLY
have I been doing this wrong this whole time!?!?!?!?!?!Thank you for correcting my misperception. I will update my players accordingly.
OK, runner-up ability I hate, is fireball. It does so much damage that there's a strong chance that hordes of low-level creatures will get wiped out even if they all make the save. There's a reason minions in 4E didn't die when they succeeded on a saving throw. I've thought about house-ruling some exception like "succeeding on a saving throw can't take you from full HP down to zero" but it's too fiddly. I heard that they overpowered fireball and some other spells because of their iconic status and their importance to the classic D&D experience.
Warmaster Horus
Explorer
But that's what it does and has for years (sacred cow). If this bothers you just add more fodder and the caster will eventually run out of spell slots.
Uller
Adventurer
I can't recall if it was a house rule or an actual rule but I do remember that at our table in 4e you could never drop to 0 hp on a successful save. You'd drop to one instead.HOLY
Thank you for correcting my misperception. I will update my players accordingly.
OK, runner-up ability I hate, is fireball. It does so much damage that there's a strong chance that hordes of low-level creatures will get wiped out even if they all make the save. There's a reason minions in 4E didn't die when they succeeded on a saving throw. I've thought about house-ruling some exception like "succeeding on a saving throw can't take you from full HP down to zero" but it's too fiddly. I heard that they overpowered fireball and some other spells because of their iconic status and their importance to the classic D&D experience.
I don't think that woild be an unreasonable house rule if it applies equally to both pcs and npcs. I try to limit my house rules so I don't feel a real strong need to implement it but if someone in my group did feel strongly about it, I'd agree to give it a try. It certainly would make encounters with weak mobs more interesting and would give the PCs a reprieve on occasion.
Istbor
Dances with Gnolls
To be fair, for this shadows thing, I would not allow it for a totally different reason, brushing aside whether someone tricked by an illusion would or wouldn't see light coming from the covered source, the caster would KNOW it is fake. So no shadow for them at the very least, which would then negate their ability to use anything... shady... *cough*.
Now... mine... I have to say, I hate Comprehend language. I also greatly dislike the Curse ability warlocks have, but only because there is no save, it just happens apparently.
I have a player that casts Detect Magic as a ritual continually.
DM: "You walk down a hallway."
Player: "Is there anything magical? What school?"
DM: "You enter the tomb."
Player: "Is there anything magical? What school?"
DM: "You're in the privy."
Player: "Is there anything magical? What school?"
It gets old REALLY quickly.
DM: "You walk down a hallway."
Player: "Is there anything magical? What school?"
DM: "You enter the tomb."
Player: "Is there anything magical? What school?"
DM: "You're in the privy."
Player: "Is there anything magical? What school?"
It gets old REALLY quickly.
I agree that illusion spells can be hard to adjudicate, but a lot of it is on the players' and table dynamic.
A lot can be solved by the player stating what they are trying to accomplish with the spell for the DM to adjudicate; not just the direct image created. In this case, the DM is certainly not out of line at all, as the player does seem to be trying to get around the "no creature" limitation.
Minor Illusion cannot change lighting conditions, the DM is right to rule that the shadows/box over the candle would have bizarre effects. A box over a candle would conceal the candle, but the room would still be lit by flickering candlelight. The Cantrip is versatile and useful enough without making a poor man's darkness out of it.
Here the DM is out of line. The 'Evil Sorcerer' may be suspicious of seeing the wall spring out of nowhere, but that would probably lead to advantage on the investigate check. The patrol, unless they saw the wall spring into being, had no reason to be suspicious (unless they were very familiar with the area and knew that there was no wall there). Furthermore, the caster can see through the illusion and would not be surprised by the patrol unless they made an effort to be very circumspect before they attacked.
Open ended effects really can open up a can of worms for some groups. In addition to a careful reading of the restrictions of the spell, it is useful to adjudicate that the spell cannot become a poor man's darkness, continuous invisibility, etc. thereby getting many spells in one.
A lot can be solved by the player stating what they are trying to accomplish with the spell for the DM to adjudicate; not just the direct image created. In this case, the DM is certainly not out of line at all, as the player does seem to be trying to get around the "no creature" limitation.
Minor Illusion cannot change lighting conditions, the DM is right to rule that the shadows/box over the candle would have bizarre effects. A box over a candle would conceal the candle, but the room would still be lit by flickering candlelight. The Cantrip is versatile and useful enough without making a poor man's darkness out of it.
Here the DM is out of line. The 'Evil Sorcerer' may be suspicious of seeing the wall spring out of nowhere, but that would probably lead to advantage on the investigate check. The patrol, unless they saw the wall spring into being, had no reason to be suspicious (unless they were very familiar with the area and knew that there was no wall there). Furthermore, the caster can see through the illusion and would not be surprised by the patrol unless they made an effort to be very circumspect before they attacked.
Open ended effects really can open up a can of worms for some groups. In addition to a careful reading of the restrictions of the spell, it is useful to adjudicate that the spell cannot become a poor man's darkness, continuous invisibility, etc. thereby getting many spells in one.
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