D&D 2E As a strategy 4e or 2e on classes

classes and theme and background reliance

  • More classes and fewer and less reliance on themes and backgrounds

    Votes: 23 27.4%
  • fewer classes and more reliance on themes and backgrounds

    Votes: 61 72.6%

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
D&D has always had too many classes (or almost always, if you go back really far).

I am not a 4e expert, but certainly I found its new classes to be remarkably uninspiring. D&D has plenty. Do the ones that exist right, make them more flexible with themes and such, and stop adding more.

Also, look at PF's take, archetypes, and how that's cut down on class proliferation.
Yes, PF archetypes have cut down class proliferation. However it is very different from the proppossed "let's gett rid of as many classes as posible with themes", first, because taking an rachetype doesn't eat away your chances of customization, you are as free to pick your skills and feats regardless of whether you take an archetype or not, in that sense it is almost as good as having an actual new class, it doesn't leads to sameness on characters.

Having "themes as classes" just discriminates the players of the demoted classes, you no longer have any chances of customization if you play one of those. And you cannot play any of those if themes are turned off.

Now some people have argued that you don''t need rules to make your character unique, that roleplay alone is enough, but no matter how much you roleplay your character, if all paladins must have the same exact background to be paladins then you are missing crucial skill bonuses you would have otherwise and that would fit your character. No matter how much you roleplay your run of the mill paladin as a healer or as a negotiator, or even a musician, you'll never be able to make it count if it doesn't reflects on the dice when you need it. Which may not be bad if it was the same for all, but when your suppossed musician paladin fails and the wizard with the musician background does it and it happens every single time, then your character is a second rate character because he was denied a critical background by virtue of wanting to play a class that has been core in almost every single edition but made the sin of not being one of the "Big four" and was denied being a class in Next.
 

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Now some people have argued that you don''t need rules to make your character unique, that roleplay alone is enough, but no matter how much you roleplay your character, if all paladins must have the same exact background to be paladins then you are missing crucial skill bonuses you would have otherwise and that would fit your character. No matter how much you roleplay your run of the mill paladin as a healer or as a negotiator, or even a musician, you'll never be able to make it count if it doesn't reflects on the dice when you need it. Which may not be bad if it was the same for all, but when your suppossed musician paladin fails and the wizard with the musician background does it and it happens every single time, then your character is a second rate character because he was denied a critical background by virtue of wanting to play a class that has been core in almost every single edition but made the sin of not being one of the "Big four" and was denied being a class in Next.

"Some people" here, reporting for duty.

I think customization of individualized characters is what skills and feats are for, not classes. I've had diplomatic paladins in both 3e (Viking) and 4e (quasi-Roman), and in both cases it was about good Charisma and choosing to emphasize my Diplomacy skill. Why would I need a kit or theme or special class to do that?

A paladin diplomat who doesn't have any skill at Diplomacy (in an edition that uses such) is just a poorly written character . . . not a second rate character, just a character who apparently "wasted" skills/feats on stuff the player wasn't really interested in and "forgot" to put them where intended.

How would that be different with kits? "Ooh, I took the crusader paladin kit. But I want a paladin who is great at singing. Oppps, guess I should have taken the Singing Paladin kit or the Choir Boy theme or the Avenging Singer-songwriter class."

And with a feats and skill approach, you could split the difference, if you want to a little good at both diplomacy and singing . . . without the rules bloat of endless splatbooks.

As for the approach in AD&D (pre-UA), there were no skills, feats, kits, themes, alternative classes, prestige classes, etc. And we got along fine without them. Want a singing paladin in AD&D? Announce at the table, "My character was raised at a monastery and trained as classical singer. He's a fine tenor and was the usual soloist for feast day services back home." DM says, "Cool" and most likely it never comes up again unless the player wants to do something with it.

If the player says, "I'll ask the local cleric if I can sing at the church service", most likely the DM will say, "Sure. Your reputation preceeds, and the cleric is very happy to tell everyone your singing. The Church is just packed on the big day. Everyone is impressed by Sir Elvis's crooning, and after the service, several damsels would like to seek his personal theological advice . . . "

If somehow there was a situation requiring a "skill check" (singing contest?), in DMing AD&D I'd use a super complicated rule to resolve whether Sir Elvis or Cedric the Bard won (the latter being an actual character name in a party I was in -- Cedrid the Entertainer, get it): roll a d20 + Cha bonus + true Bard level (if you've got one). Fair and simple.

For what it's worth, I love paladins and bards. I'd do everything in the AD&D PHB and the 3e PHB as core clasess for 5e, which means:
-- Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian
-- Thief/Rogue, Assassin
-- Magic User/Wizard, Sorcerer, and Illusionist
-- Cleric, Druid
-- Monk
-- Bard (both preferably multi-class and single class versions)

Why not the stuff from 2e or 4e? I didn't enjoy either even edition, but if there's something from their PHB class lists that everybody likes and isn't on my list (Cavalier? Warlock? Warlord?), OK, no sweat. I agree it makes more sense to talk about what to include than what to exclude. Some stuff, like Rogue/Thief, they would need to decide what to call as its for all intents and purposes the same thing (ditto on Wizard/Magic User).
 

ren1999

First Post
I think there should be four core classes to teach the game and then have as many class themes as previous editions had. Druid, Witch etc.. These themes should have a suggested skill and power list for level-ups. Prefered armor, weapons and equipment could be submitted.

How about some historical legends and lore on the classes? A Druid is like a Western European cleric wizard.

A mage is like an Iranian wizard.. Etc.. They were known to have these powers...
 

slobo777

First Post
I've always thought of a class as "someone else's idea of what my character is like",much more so than stats, skills, feats and other more modular parts of the character.

So I would like to see a strategy of putting more weight on themes and backgrounds, wherever it makes sense, and works for the game.

Much of that boils down to power level. D&D still puts a lot of weight into the class. I still expect classes to cover about half of what the character does. But too much, and it feels too cookier-cutter . . .
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
In 4e classes were very out there, heck the grid was filled. In 2e they had the PHB classes and that was it (other than psionicist), they took the kit structure to the max though. How do you settle in on this? More classes, fewer themes and backgrounds or fewer classes with more themes and backgrounds.
4e put classes at the intersection of Source and Role. It was workable, but did result in a lot of classes. If you replace source with class, and have role floating independently (as a theme, as in the playtest), you can get just as 'full' a grid - as a matter of fact, the grid is automatically full - with a lot fewer unique game elements.

5e's current set-up, by the way, doesn't fill a grid, but a hyper-cube (teseract), with axes of: Class, Race, Background, and Theme.
 

Viking Bastard

Adventurer
Well, despite a Runepriest or Soulknife not being archetypal character classes, they do appeal to a significant portion of the D&D fanbase.

Sure and their inclusion won't make me hate a game (or even make me forbid anyone from playing a "Soulknife" or whatever), they just feel like they defeat the point of a class system, which for me is all about the archetypes.

But I think it's why I like the 4e subclasses so much: Cleric (Runepriest) or Psion (Soulknife) gives me a clearer concept to work with. It's also why I'm liking the "Race Class Background Theme" system in 5e. "Elf Wizard Soldier Healer" delivers a clear character concept in itself.
 
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Incenjucar

Legend
For me, it's important that class construction keeps in mind the many possibilities of range and method.

Range includes concepts like:
Weapon
Personal
Melee
Ranged
Close
Far
AOE
Pet
Aura
Zone
Conjuration
Ally (Channeling through one)
Enemy (Channeling through one)
Object (Channeling through one)

Method includes concepts like:
Polymorphed forms
Skills (Inspirational Speeches, etc.)
Supernatural powers
Terrain
Allies
Stances
Environment (darkness, summer heat, etc)
Objects (pillars, braziers, rubble, etc)
Equipment (Gnomish power armor :p )
Cards (Draw cards, determine effect based on hand)
Chaos (Wild Magic, Drunken Boxing, Priest of Luck, etc)
Pets/Minions
Armored
Unfettered

In 4E, for example, a monk often used AOE melee attacks, and a shaman often used supernatural powers on allies via pets.

Some possibilities that haven't been explored much are a chaos-based armored melee polymorpher, a ranged-pet-based aura user, or a stance-based terrain-using conjurer.

There are a lot of possibilities within the classes, but there are still so many possible combinations that could warrant their own class concepts provided enough passion was put behind their design (rather than simply the desire to fill a quota).
 

Remathilis

Legend
I think there should be four core classes to teach the game and then have as many class themes as previous editions had. Druid, Witch etc.. These themes should have a suggested skill and power list for level-ups. Prefered armor, weapons and equipment could be submitted.

Why stop there? we could roll cleric in with wizard and make "spellcaster" and roll rogue in with fighter and make "swordswinger" and make cleric, fighter, rogue and wizard all themes as well?
 

Remathilis

Legend
The OP did not account for the fact that there are additional and alternative classes for 2nd edition in various splat-books. Still not as many as 3rd or 4th edition, but I don't think there were as few as he thinks there is. For instance, anyone else remember the Chronomancer?

There was: barbarian (Complete Barbarian's Handbook), shaman (Shaman), chronomancer (Chronomancer), psionicist (Complete Psionic's Handbook), ninja (Complete Ninja's Handbook), crusader, monk, shaman II (Spells & Magic), mystic (Faiths and Avatars), wild mage, elementalist (Tome of Magic), assassin, monk II (Scarlet Brotherhood), and shadow mage, force mage, geometer, alchemist, artificer, song mage, and dimensionalist (Spells & Magic) and the dozens of campaign-specific ones like anchorite (RL), gladiator(DS), knight of the rose(DL), and the genie mages from Al-Qadim...
 

Sadrik

First Post
Do you really think others who do not want to play themes and backgrounds want the extra complexity of lots of classes? I don't think someone who wants lower complexity, who is willing to drop the themes and backgrounds from the game, is going to feel like enhanced gameplay exists in a vast array of narrowly defined niche classes.

I do not want to see newer versions of a core class that obsoletes the old. I saw this happen in 4e quite a bit.

Class is the mechanical underpinning, theme a mechanical add on (subclass, kit, specialty), and background as a where the character came from (culture, societal role, profession, rural, wilderness, city etc). This may not be their direction but I think this would be a very good way to go.
 

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