D&D General Asian D&D

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think it would be cool if we could get settings and options for D&D that weren't founded on pseudo-medieval western societies.

We're starting to see that, with Islands of Sina Una, A Thousand Thousand Islands and other settings by folks from outside the US, talking about their own myths and legends. (And even from a European standpoint, we're getting a lot of RPG material out of Italy and some from France, each of which has its own feel.)

More is definitely better, though. I look forward to the day we can get Australian-flavored and Polynesian-flavored settings from the folks who know those parts of the world best.

 

[bloodtide]

While this is certainly a possible (I'd even say likely) factor, there's also another. What's the point of completely rewriting it? It will likely alienate at least some of the people who liked it before, while being a big risk of some kind of boneheaded maneuver or the like. Asian, Middle Eastern, and North African cultures have often been depicted very poorly in the West, without even dipping into the really, really bad stuff. "Orientalism" tends to make infantile, undeveloped caricatures that can be expressed in extremely simple terms, despite covering (at this point) billions of humans who belong to dozens of distinct cultures.

Well, most often the focus of companies is on only new player customers and not the old existing customers.

This is also the problem I mentioned in the "removing content thread". How does any company make anything "based" on something from the real world? Even if the "try" to do "good" some people will still not like it, right?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

As I understand it, punching down means one of two things: It's either a reference to deflating dough once it's risen or it's referring to the practice of someone of higher social status abusing or criticizing someone of lower social status. It may be cultural appropriation to take from other cultures, but you're the first I've heard to refer to it as punching down. China, Japan, and Korea are big boys when it comes to creating their own media and even exporting it to other countries. In fact, one of the places they export their culture to is the United States. It's not like we just went in there and took it.

Except, as I said, with an actual example, Orientalism was and is a thing, and a naughty word thing at that. Yellowface should be exactly as much of a problem as blackface, and yet Max von Sydow (a wonderful actor) did a yellowface role, Ming the Merciless in Flash Gordon (a film I love despite its racism), and the feature film I Now Pronounce You Chuck & Larry had Rob Schneider as Morris Takechi, including facial prosthesis (a film I don't personally have any feelings about, but which drew a lot of criticism for Schneider's role.)

Asians in the West are a minority. Yes, on the grand world stage, they are among the "big boys," and it's quite easy for them to punch down. But in the US and Europe, they are minority groups, often comparatively small ones (moreso in Europe), and they are often depicted in ways that are pretty friggin' bad. Before the Civil Rights movement, most portrayals of East Asian and Southeast Asian people were either as poorly-educated menial laborers or as sinister enemies to be opposed. After, the portrayal has largely switched to their "model minority" status, which has its own share of naughty word, racist faults. (I could give examples but...well, I'd rather not, y'know?)

And, uh...I hate to break it to you, but in historical fact, we (the United States) DID "[go] in there and [take] it." We did that to Japan not once, but twice. The Perry Expedition, in 1853-54, used threats of military force to make Japan end its sakoku isolation policy and open up trade with the rest of the world, and this "gunboat diplomacy" (directly ordered by President Millard Fillmore, if Perry found that ordinary diplomacy failed) directly led to the rise of "Japanisme." In Japanese, this event is referred to as "the arrival of the Black Ships." Not exactly a ringing endorsement. And then, the second time, the United States dropped nuclear weapons on two cities and engaged in a military occupation and rebuilding program. So...yeah, in very real senses, we HAVE just gone in there and taken it. More than once.

I think @Steampunkette probably gave us the most comprehensive reason why a new Asian setting would be unlikely to sell well in some place like Japan.

Certainly; I don't know Japanese day-to-day culture anywhere near well enough to comment on any of that, which is why I haven't. They all sound plausible and apply to things I know to be true, so I have no reason to disagree. But I see those things as separate from considerations about how Westerners should go about telling tales about, or inspired by, Eastern cultures.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Well, most often the focus of companies is on only new player customers and not the old existing customers.

This is also the problem I mentioned in the "removing content thread". How does any company make anything "based" on something from the real world? Even if the "try" to do "good" some people will still not like it, right?

You do the best with the tools you have, show your work, and take the vast majority of criticism seriously (it is always better to take the time to listen to criticism, even if it is in bad faith, than to dismiss valid criticism because you aren't sure it's valid.) It is impossible to make art worthy of the name that cannot even in principle hurt someone, somewhere. That means you must accept that SOME people could be hurt, and the maxim changes from "never ever cause harm no matter what" to "do your due diligence and be prepared to make amends if something still catches you anyway." It's not that hard.

 

[Dustin Cooper]

I’m thinking WotC should release 5e in Japanese, Chinese, and Korean with a thoroughly updated Kara-Tur. That is a huge market that loves the genre and could lead to a lot of growth IMO. Why haven’t they done this yet?

One thing I remember reading years ago from people who involved in the Japanese TRPG scene was that how Western D&D is was part of the appeal. Like to the point where some Japanese grognards would get pissed off at D&D being presented with anime style art. It's possible that that's changed, but suddenly shifting D&D to a Japan based setting risks alienating the audience for little gain. This is particularly true if it's Westerners in charge of what this setting was. For instance, those same people also talked about the time a Japanese TRPG magazine took a look at Legend of the Five Rings. They just found the whole thing baffling, and it was clear that it had no appeal to them.

 

[MGibster]

And, uh...I hate to break it to you, but in historical fact, we (the United States) DID "[go] in there and [take] it." We did that to Japan not once, but twice. The Perry Expedition, in 1853-54, used threats of military force to make Japan end its sakoku isolation policy and open up trade with the rest of the world, and this "gunboat diplomacy" (directly ordered by President Millard Fillmore, if Perry found that ordinary diplomacy failed) directly led to the rise of "Japanisme." In Japanese, this event is referred to as "the arrival of the Black Ships." Not exactly a ringing endorsement. And then, the second time, the United States dropped nuclear weapons on two cities and engaged in a military occupation and rebuilding program. So...yeah, in very real senses, we HAVE just gone in there and taken it. More than once.

I'm aware of both. Japan retained control over their own destiny following the Perry expedition becoming a modern power in just a few short decades. And as far as WWII goes, it's not like the Allies just woke up one day, decided to bomb the hell out of Japan, and followed that up by colonizing them. But this isn't likely the appropriate forum to discuss the history of western relations with Japan. The point is that Japan has freely engaged in a cultural exchange with the United States for quite a while now and are not hapless victims of big bad westerners taking their beloved cultural icons.

Asians in the West are a minority. Yes, on the grand world stage, they are among the "big boys," and it's quite easy for them to punch down. But in the US and Europe, they are minority groups, often comparatively small ones (moreso in Europe), and they are often depicted in ways that are pretty friggin' bad.

And that's just it. If I borrow from Japan am I punching down on Japanese Americans or all people of Asian descent here in the US?

It doesn't really matter. You've just demonstrated a good reason why it's not a good idea to re-do Kara-Tur. There's just no way to avoid cries of cultural appropriation and now punching down apparently. It's not worth the potential headache.

 

[Kalmi]

Not Sword World?

And the same question goes there: Why isn't there an English-language translation of that available in the West?

I mean I'm not an expert and I don't have sales numbers in front of me, but just going off what I've heard, CoC is the biggest seller overall, while Sword World is the biggest home-grown TTRPG in Japan.

As for translation, I imagine it's just a problem of cost vs. opportunity. For the same reasons Sword World has a lot of advantages in Japan (familiar brand, decades to build up a community, written by and for Japanese creators who understand the market, less competition in their particular niche), all those same things would become disadvantages in an English market which already has a thriving and crowded retro scene. I don't think Group SNE is an especially massive publisher, so they probably don't have the kind of income to spare to make translated editions an easy investment. I would certainly be happy if they could release an official translation, but it's not hard to see why they'd avoid pursuing that. Perhaps if the fan translations lead to a significant overseas fanbase things could change, but I wouldn't expect one any time soon.

 

[Iosue]

If the market is small and saturated by other companies with a long history in the community you have to come in with something really strong to get noticed. 5e, on it's own, is not strong enough. That's why there's a Commercial for it, but very low interest in the localizations, comparatively.

5e is hugely popular in Japan. Let me refer to this thread.

Updating it for the recently released 2022 numbers, it shows

1. D&D (all editions) 286 games
2. Shadowrun (all editions) 120 games
3. Sword World (all editions) 116 games
4. Pathfinder 108 games (I believe this is 1st Ed., as there is no translation of 2nd Ed.)
5. Call of Cthulhu 105 games

Once an official localization of 5e was produced in 2017, it immediately became one of the most commonly played games, second only to the Cthulhu fad. And now that the fad has subsided, it's on top again. While the above groups all editions of D&D together, as of 2020, when editions were listed separately, 5e was 100s of games ahead of the next closest edition, 4e.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I'm aware of both. Japan retained control over their own destiny following the Perry expedition becoming a modern power in just a few short decades. And as far as WWII goes, it's not like the Allies just woke up one day, decided to bomb the hell out of Japan, and followed that up by colonizing them. But this isn't likely the appropriate forum to discuss the history of western relations with Japan. The point is that Japan has freely engaged in a cultural exchange with the United States for quite a while now and are not hapless victims of big bad westerners taking their beloved cultural icons.

And that's just it. If I borrow from Japan am I punching down on Japanese Americans or all people of Asian descent here in the US?

It doesn't really matter. You've just demonstrated a good reason why it's not a good idea to re-do Kara-Tur. There's just no way to avoid cries of cultural appropriation and now punching down apparently. It's not worth the potential headache.

That's just...no. You're wrong about whether things can be done better. They can. I literally said how: employ sensitivity readers/editors, listen to feedback, etc. Do due diligence.

Whether it is worthwhile--as in, financially viable--or not is a separate question entirely. You can absolutely do better. The two questions are completely separate.

And no, I don't think it is wrong to call it "punching down" to refer to LITERAL ACTUAL YELLOWFACE that way. In an actual, blockbuster film, from a major company, within the past 20 years (just under 16 years ago, to be precise), we had a relatively prominent actor with makeup and facial prosthesis in order to appear Asian (specifically Japanese) when he is not.

 

[MGibster]

And no, I don't think it is wrong to call it "punching down" to refer to LITERAL ACTUAL YELLOWFACE that way. In an actual, blockbuster film, from a major company, within the past 20 years (just under 16 years ago, to be precise), we had a relatively prominent actor with makeup and facial prosthesis in order to appear Asian (specifically Japanese) when he is not.

I don't see how yellowface is relevant in a conversation about Kara-Tur. I don't really care whether it's punching down or not, it's just a weird thing to bring up within the context of RPGs.