Asmodeus ~ 2nd Ed. concept no longer relevant

[bramadan]

This stuff is exactly why I was so harsh with the "Legions of Hell" by C.P. in my review thereof.
He continues to push his dualistic Zoro-astrian / Judeo Christian cosmology in that book despite the fact that it is hardly usefull to the most DnD players who use more balanced Great-Wheel ideas or derivatives thereof.
I was critiqued for this, back then, by people who said: it was in the Guide to Hell so that is "official" DnD cosmology.
Fact that Monte will discount the whole thing speaks volumes to he fact that it was never realy compatible with the most of the DnD ideas about the planes.
Armies of the Abyss seems much closer to the "standard" and hence more usefull (to me at least...)

 

[Information]

He continues to push his dualistic Zoro-astrian / Judeo Christian cosmology in that book despite the fact that it is hardly usefull to the most DnD players who use more balanced Great-Wheel ideas or derivatives thereof.

Another negative residual effect of The Guide to Hell is the concept of "fallen celestials". I deplore what has happened to Baalzebul (see the MotP and read all about his new slug-like form), and I just hate the concept of Asmodeus being a fallen entity from Celestia or Elysium. Just needless Judeo-Christian mythology that doesn't fit well with the Great Wheel (or, even Toril's cosmology, which has a stronger good vs. evil distribution of planes).

"Triel the Fallen..." Ugh.

 

[The Serge]

Another negative residual effect of The Guide to Hell is the concept of "fallen celestials". I deplore what has happened to Baalzebul (see the MotP and read all about his new slug-like form), and I just hate the concept of Asmodeus being a fallen entity from Celestia or Elysium. Just needless Judeo-Christian mythology that doesn't fit well with the Great Wheel (or, even Toril's cosmology, which has a stronger good vs. evil distribution of planes).

"Triel the Fallen..." Ugh.

Hmmm.... Interesting positions to take considering that a lot of D&D is related to Judeao/Christian/Islamic mythology. The images of the Devils, many Demons, and the Celestials closely parallel that of Christianity and Islam and have since 1ed.

As for the Great Wheel... while I don't subscribe to everything Pramas offered in either A Guide to Hell or Legions of Hell , I don't see how this adversely affects the Great Wheel. First, the Great Wheel is cosmology specific; not all Prime Material Planes will use it (FR doesn't). Second, the idea that there is a central intellectual center for Lawful Evil makes perfect sense. And, given the fact that this being is consigned within Hell due to his own Pride is not something unique to Christian thought.

As far as the Persian Mythology base for Asmodeus/Ahriman, I see nothing wrong with it especially when one considers that Tiamat and Bahamut stem from real world religions (Tiamat from Babylonian, Bahamut from Islamic tradition).

Finally, regarding Monte Cook and his changes in the Book of Vile Darkness . He actually gave Legions of Hell a very good review. Just because a person does not agree with something does not necessarily mean the person thought it was bad. I personally disagree with a lot of the concepts and ideas that Monte Cook and Chris Pramas have come up with.... but they are very good concepts that may work for some people.

Where have you been Upper Krust. I've missed intellectual sparing with you.

 

[bramadan]

One thing in which the DnD cosmology is very distinct from the J-C one is the fact that Demons and Devils are very distinct beings. Whole Blood War was one of my favourite things in DnD cosmology.
I do not mind J-C cosmology, cosmology of my present campaing is essentialy Gnostic, but it works teribly with polytheistic religions that are common in DnD.
And no, I did not like fallen celestials either.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Aaron mate!

I tried to post this last night (right after my previous post in this thread) but was kicked out due to excess traffic - after already being allowed in!?

U_K, that sounds awesome.

Some gods using worshippers fpr power and some using other sources, even stealing it from each other. I'm very happy with a setup like that.

Thanks! Although most of it is plain common sense!

Now, the Ahriman/Asmodeus thing. It sounds interesting, but I wouldn't want that to be the way it is in my games, and it has the feeling of something just slapped on to make Asmodeus more powerful than he was before. Kinda cheesy.

As long as you disassociate Ahriman with Asmodeus in some fashion it still works pretty well I think.

Now, I never imagined Asmodeus ruling all of Hell itself anymore than I imagine any god ruling all of the plane it resides upon. Asmodeus rules the Devils, not Hell. The Devils are the primary inhabitants of the Hells, so Asmodeus has a great deal of power there, but he doesn't control the plane itself.

1st Ed. cosmology made sense though. Asmodeus did rule Hell; through ruling the devils. The top devils were all Lesser powers - which meant on their home planes they were practically a match for (non-native to Hell) Greater Powers. Even interloper Greater Powers would be defeated by an assemblage of devils such as Asmodeus could command.

A further mistake in cosmology was the introduction of the Intermediate God status. Initially it seemed that the only Greater Gods should be the previous 400hp Pantheon Heads. But lately any tom, dick or harry gets Greater God status. So this further widened the gap twixt Greater Powers and the Archdevils - even before they were demoted for bad behaviour in the eyes of 'fundie placaters'.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Voadam!

Octopus, Octopi.

Asmodeus, Asmodei.

Sounds right to me.

Well, Asmodeus was never really powerful. I have it from the highest autority possible, Magna Veritas/In Nomine Satanis, the game where you can play angels or demons.

I pegged you for having that game Gez mate!

I recommend everyone check it out if you haven't already done so!?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi information mate!

The Ahriman/Asmodeus concept posits an exlusivist cosmology which would work with very few cosmologies, and as derived from the Guide to Hell, those which use the Great Wheel. But...even here it doesn't work very well. I would have thought that the Ahriman being would have descended to Hades (the plane of evil balanced between law and chaos), as opposed to the lawful evil plane, i.e. the Nine Hells.

The concept, no offense to Mr. Pramas, was poorly constructed. I don't use the Great Wheel (my cosmology is closer to Toril's), but even if I did, I would retreat from any suggestion of interjecting a pre-existent dualism in the Great Wheel's cosmology, *especially* one in which the planes of Law (as opposed to those of neutral good and neutral evil) were used as the catalyst for the cosmology's construction and eventual downfall (if I understand Asmodeus's/Ahriman's schema correctly).

I think its overly critical to bash Chris [Pramas] because the cosmology he presented in a supplement doesn't blend seemlessly with every possible cosmogony.

When I did use the Great Wheel, I generated a cosmogony which allowed for the simultaneous emergance of all the planes as a necessary working out of a balance between all contending ideological extremeties, i.e. law, chaos, evil, and good. In a cosmology (presumably such as one the Great Wheel is predicated upon), in which all contending forces are balanced, an absurdity emerges in using one ethical extreme, here Law, as the progenitor and potential destroyer of opposing forces.

I wouldn't refer to it as an absurdity; but more likely a closed cosmology - specifically revolving round the Persian Mythos.

Chris [Pramas] merely transplanted the dualism therein to the broader D&D multiverse.

The problem lies in running these ideas in an open cosmology (it doesn't quite 'gel') - but thats a problem you are always going to face when you juxtapose multiple mythologies...

...though its not impossible!

As I am leaning closer to actually using the devils and demons of 3E (excited as I am by Monte's BoVD, and his treatment, as I understand it, of the archfiends), and as my cosmology presumes no "The Adversary", I have no use or desire for such use for an Ahriman-type entity, especially one that has been associated with a specific race exemplifying a very specific alignment (in this case Asmodeus and the devils). Sorry, just not my cup of tea.

Fair enough; but credit and criticism where its due - Monte (much as I love the guy) did balls up Tharizdun (for the purists anyway) in RttToEE (if indeed Monte was responsible for equating Tharizdun with Entropy!?). Then again, perhaps I am being overly critical myself (?) I suppose we'll never know how much of Gygax' initial concept of Tharizdun WotC legally had to play with!?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Another negative residual effect of The Guide to Hell is the concept of "fallen celestials".

It solves the 'chicken & egg' (or rather 'god & man') question though. Or at least gives it an answer; explained in religious terms (god creates man) rather than an atheistical approach (where man creates god)

I deplore what has happened to Baalzebul (see the MotP and read all about his new slug-like form), and I just hate the concept of Asmodeus being a fallen entity from Celestia or Elysium. Just needless Judeo-Christian mythology that doesn't fit well with the Great Wheel (or, even Toril's cosmology, which has a stronger good vs. evil distribution of planes).

"Triel the Fallen..." Ugh.

The blame for that can't fall on Chris [Pramas] shoulders though. A writer called Colin McComb was responsible for the initial 2nd Ed. depictions of the 'Lords of the Nine' - though I would guess even he was hamstrung in many ways by the 2nd Ed. 'right to censor'.

Personally I like the idea that Baalzebul is a fallen angel (although he should have been a fallen Solar). The whole 'turned into a slug' thing is incidental (since the Reckoning doesn't have to have occured in every campaign) - however, it will be interesting to eventually see how the Lords of the Nine are portrayed in the Book of Vile Darkness?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi The Serge mate!

Hmmm.... Interesting positions to take considering that a lot of D&D is related to Judeao/Christian/Islamic mythology. The images of the Devils, many Demons, and the Celestials closely parallel that of Christianity and Islam and have since 1ed.

Absolutely!

As for the Great Wheel... while I don't subscribe to everything Pramas offered in either A Guide to Hell or Legions of Hell , I don't see how this adversely affects the Great Wheel. First, the Great Wheel is cosmology specific; not all Prime Material Planes will use it (FR doesn't). Second, the idea that there is a central intellectual center for Lawful Evil makes perfect sense. And, given the fact that this being is consigned within Hell due to his own Pride is not something unique to Christian thought.

I think 'informations' problem was with the representation of (the ultimate) 'Evil' as 'Lawful Evil'. Not that there shouldn't be a personification of Lawful Evil but simply that such a being won't be the greatest evil - as attested in GtH/LoH.

As far as the Persian Mythology base for Asmodeus/Ahriman, I see nothing wrong with it especially when one considers that Tiamat and Bahamut stem from real world religions (Tiamat from Babylonian, Bahamut from Islamic tradition).

I agree.

Finally, regarding Monte Cook and his changes in the Book of Vile Darkness . He actually gave Legions of Hell a very good review. Just because a person does not agree with something does not necessarily mean the person thought it was bad. I personally disagree with a lot of the concepts and ideas that Monte Cook and Chris Pramas have come up with.... but they are very good concepts that may work for some people.

Indeed!

Where have you been Upper Krust. I've missed intellectual sparing with you.

I appreciate the love!

I have been around! Only able to post here for a few hours each day since the blockade.

I saw your post at Montes Message Boards inquiring about me!

Unfortunately I still don't have Deities & Demigods - so I haven't had the opportunity to scythe through that yet; and subsequently respond to as many threads/posts as I otherwise could.

 

[Upper_Krust]

One thing in which the DnD cosmology is very distinct from the J-C one is the fact that Demons and Devils are very distinct beings. [/QB]

Actually you may want to read Paradise Lost by Milton. In Lucifers descent to Hell he passes through 'the Abyss' and encounters Demogorgon and Orcus.

From Paradise Lost Book II

With loudest vehemence: thither he plyes,
Undaunted to meet there what ever power
Or Spirit of the nethermost Abyss
Might in that noise reside, of whom to ask
Which way the neerest coast of darkness lyes
Bordering on light; when strait behold the Throne
Of Chaos, and his dark Pavilion spread
Wide on the wasteful Deep; with him Enthron'd
Sat Sable-vested Night, eldest of things,
The consort of his Reign; and by them stood
Orcus and Ades, and the dreaded name
Of Demogorgon ; Rumor next and Chance,
And Tumult and Confusion all imbroild,
And Discord with a thousand various mouths.
T' whom Satan turning boldly, thus. Ye Powers
And Spirits of this nethermost Abyss,
Chaos and Ancient Night , I come no Spie,
With purpose to explore or to disturb
The secrets of your Realm, but by constraint
Wandring this darksome desart, as my way
Lies through your spacious Empire up to light,
Alone, and without guide, half lost, I seek
What readiest path leads where your gloomie bounds
Confine with Heav'n; or if som other place