Asmodeus ~ 2nd Ed. concept no longer relevant

[Desdichado]

bramadan:
This stuff is exactly why I was so harsh with the "Legions of Hell" by C.P. in my review thereof.
He continues to push his dualistic Zoro-astrian / Judeo Christian cosmology in that book despite the fact that it is hardly usefull to the most DnD players who use more balanced Great-Wheel ideas or derivatives thereof.

Seems kinda funny to accept demons and devils in the first place, including ones named from the Judeo-christian cosmology, but then complain that it's too Judeo-Christian. That's sorta like using Zeus, Hades, Athena, et al. as your pantheon in game and then complaining that the setting is too "Olympian."

 

[Nikchick]

The blame for that can't fall on Chris [Pramas] shoulders though. A writer called Colin McComb was responsible for the initial 2nd Ed. depictions of the 'Lords of the Nine' - though I would guess even he was hamstrung in many ways by the 2nd Ed. 'right to censor'.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.

Seriously, I remember talking to Chris about this project when he was working on it, and the insane amount of different "official" sources he was required to stitch together for the book. There's a heck of a lot of detail about Hell in the existing D&D materials that had to be combed over and stuck to. Not a lot of room to work, the freakin' book is only 64 pages or something.

It's good to remember that in those pre-3E days things worked a lot differently around the TSR clique within WotC. The whole set-up of the company, the responsibilities of the Creative Directors, the beginnings of the Brand Team, and multiple re-organizations all took place in that era; Guide to Hell and other books of that time were written under much different circumstances and with much less creative input and freedom from the authors.

Just my two cents.

Nicole

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I think the Legions of Hell is great even if the background needs to be thrown out.

 

[Pramas]

This stuff is exactly why I was so harsh with the "Legions of Hell" by C.P. in my review thereof.
He continues to push his dualistic Zoro-astrian / Judeo Christian cosmology in that book despite the fact that it is hardly usefull to the most DnD players who use more balanced Great-Wheel ideas or derivatives thereof.

You've repeated this criticism several times and at this point I'm going to have to call you on it. Legions of Hell was designed specifically to mesh nearly seamlessly with D&D's existing cosmology (in other words, the Great Wheel). The Judeo-Christian elements in Legions are those that have been in D&D since 1st edition. Where do you think Asmodeus, Beelzebub, Belial and all the rest come from? Answer: Christian books on Hell and fallen angels*. You are certainly free to dislike this construction but to say that it differs from how D&D has always presented devils is false.

Furthermore, the background section of Legions is all of two pages, and the nature of Asmoedeus in Legions is left deliberately vague. Most of the book is filled up with devils that any D&D DM can use with ease. That was the whole point of the Legions of Hell.

I was critiqued for this, back then, by people who said: it was in the Guide to Hell so that is "official" DnD cosmology.
Fact that Monte will discount the whole thing speaks volumes to he fact that it was never realy compatible with the most of the DnD ideas about the planes.
Armies of the Abyss seems much closer to the "standard" and hence more usefull (to me at least...)

The criticism I recall you receiving was from folks who disagreed strongly with your contention that Legions was "practically useless" for most DMs because of its cosmological treatment. I'm sorry you had issues with Legions, but 99% of the DMs out there don't seem to have had any problems at all using the material presented therein in their D&D games. And again, that was the entire point of Legions of Hell--new devils for D&D.

Chris Pramas

* And yes, I know some of these guys have more ancient origins, but their D&D incarnations are based firmly on Christian ideas, down to 1E books repeating word for word the number of legions under the command of different devil lords.

 

[Pramas]

The Ahriman/Asmodeus concept posits an exlusivist cosmology which would work with very few cosmologies, and as derived from the Guide to Hell, those which use the Great Wheel.

Well, it wasn't designed to work with any old cosmology, it was designed to work with the Great Wheel and specifically to explain the Law of Threes from Planescape.

I would have thought that the Ahriman being would have descended to Hades (the plane of evil balanced between law and chaos), as opposed to the lawful evil plane, i.e. the Nine Hells.

Why would you think that? Ahriman is described as a Champion of Law. The whole point of Ahriman and Jazirian is that they are lawful beings who together define things about the universe. So Jazirian goes to the Lawful Good plane and Ahriman goes to the Lawful Evil plane.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Ahh well I see now. If it's trying to explain some Planescape concept no wonder I don't like it! Still think it's a great book, I can always use more devils and I can just change the backgrounds of the ones that don't work with me. Hell since I use the 1e heirarchy of arch devils and dukes I have to rewrite a lot of that anyway as there is not Livistus or the Hag, etc.


AND BEELZEBUB has HORNS AND BIG FLY EYES!!!!! He never was pretty!!!

 

[The Serge]

Upper Krust:

Still don't have DDG?! What's going on in your part of the world?

Anyway, this is for anyone who wants to respond, including the usual suspects.

I think A Guide to Hell was not a bad book and it was clear that Pramas was spending a considerable amount of time tying up loose ends. What I find interesting about that book is not so much the history (which I think actually has a lot of room to add a lot of information) but the fact that the other Lords or Archdevils are so weak compared to 2ed Pit Fiends. Made little sense, especially when compared to the avatars of the Lords in Dragon 223.

At any rate, I think people concerned about cosmology are overreacting with regards to the "overpower" Asmodeus concept. In my campaign world, Asmodeus is an Overpower but he has limited impact on my world and he's not the BBEG. And just because he's an overpower does not mean that he'll automatically be the representative of Evil. While I do maintain that he'd be Prime Evil (mostly because he represents an intellectual, conceptual--Lawful-- aspect of Evil), he's not the only dangerous entity out there. Additionally, the suggestion that he's trapped and limited to his ability to affect things beyond Hell also makes his being an Overpower almost inconsequential.

I think for most people, the concept of Asmodeus being an overpower is about the history of the ENTIRE Cosmos, not just one "crystal sphere." I see nothing wrong with Lawful overpwoers, a handful of Greater neutral powers (with the exception of The Lady of Pain) and legions of Intermediate and Greater Chaotic powers because such a concept makes sense within the framework of my cosmology. The fact that the decision was made by Pramas, et al. to keep Asmodeus trapped is a testament to their concern that allowing him to be free in WoTC's official "creation" story would impact home-grown campaigns.

At any rate, we'll have to wait until The Book of Vile Darkness comes out. What's the ETA anyway?

 

[The Serge]

Pramas,

I was hoping you could clarify a few things for me.

In Guide to Hell , you use Jazirian as the standard of Lawful good. While I recognize the world serpent imagery she represents, it seems that she's a rather weak character to use to contest the power of Asmodeus. Why not have created (as you seemed to do in Legions of Hell a new set of beings similar to Ormazd and his Holy Spirits to rule Heaven? Was this mandated by WoTC?

Second, what IS your take on the whole Asmodeus as Overpower debate?

Finally, I had some very specific questions about the power-levels of some of the Dukes in Legions of Hell ; a few seem less powerful than Pit Fiends.

As I've said before, while I don't agree with everything, I aways like the concept. Look forward to seeing more Hell out of Green Ronin.

 

[Aaron L]

I like the idea of fallen celestials. Just as I like the idea of risen fiends (much harder in my opinion, but possible.)

 

[JohnBrown]

Another explaination

Hi all,

While it is late in this conversation, there was a point that I wanted to bring up. The question of (and I paraphrase here) "If Asmodeus isn't a god, how come he hasn't fallen under the thumb of some evil power?" has been brought up several times by several different people. While your own campaign may vary, I would like to bring up an overlooked "canon" point. The nine planes of hell are each infinitely big.

The 3rd Edition Manual of the Planes states, "The ledge-layer extends outward infinitely, but the circumference of each inner ledge (which opens onto the Pit and the next lower ledge-layer) is finite." While we are talking about gods and god-like beings here, and while they may be able to grasp the concept of infinity much better than mere mortals, it doesn't change math or physics (which again, according to the Manual of the Planes, also work the same as on the Prime, more or less).

If you accept the fact (which you may not, again your campaign may vary ), that each of the planes of hell are infinite in size (infinity x 9?, there's a concept ), unless Asmodeus, or any other evil god living there is omniscient in your campaign, it is not only possible, it is mathematically probable that that these being are all living on these planes and aren't even aware of each other! Remember, we are talking about infinite space here. Sure Asmodeus and his cronies may control the area around the Pit, but who cares? The plane(s) are infinitely big. Evil deity X needs more room for all the souls he collected...just spread out. You only have to "run into" some other major power if you want to, but why would you want to do that? There is always more space.

Regardless of whether or not Asmodeus is actually a god, would be fairly irrelevant to those beings that we all agree are true gods. Why you ask? It is due to the fact that while he may or may not be stronger than other evil gods, we can all agree on the fact that he has access to god-like resources (armies of devils, powerful lieutenants, powerful magics, etc.). Why waste your own resources fighting over something that's irrelevant? Want to control more space than Asmodeus? Just send your forces out and plant your flag. Want to have more personal power than Asmodeus, just get more worshipers, create some artifacts, etc. All of these things, and many more, will make evil god X more "powerful" than Asmodeus (and vise versa), without wasting resources or putting themselves in any danger.

Anyway, it's something to think about

JohnBrown